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David K
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Okay... well to ask what my religion is and then think I MUST be a Catholic to write about missions is stupid, in my opinion. That to me is very
distracting to an educational discussion.
u2u me your mailing address and I will ship you a copy, on the house. You keep wanting to discuss my book, but I don't think you have even looked at
it, and you should have one to see what we are trying to do. By-the-way, more than one published historian with a PhD has reviewed the book before and
after publishing. Happy New Year.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Okay... well to ask what my religion is and then think I MUST be a Catholic to write about missions is stupid, in my opinion. That to me is very
distracting to an educational discussion.
u2u me your mailing address and I will ship you a copy, on the house. You keep wanting to discuss my book, but I don't think you have even looked at
it, and you should have one to see what we are trying to do. By-the-way, more than one published historian with a PhD has reviewed the book before and
after publishing. Happy New Year. |
I don't care what religion you are or are not and would never ask. I will admit that I detest what the mission system stood for and how it went
about their pursuits. And yes, I am not a Catholic, but I LOVE the current Pope and I am sure he would have done it all differently. But that was a
different time.
Your book serves a purpose, just as all books do. And if you are going to write, you will receive reviews, good, bad and indifferent. And to
disagree with some of your conclusions does not devalue your work. Good lord, put five people who hold a PhD in history in a room, and you will hear
five different interpretations of history.
The mission system is a part of the history of all of California; some still see it as positive, and some see it as a brutal disaster. BTW--as just a
side note, one of the most interesting missions I have visited was a Jesuit Mission in Montana on the Flathead Reservation. As a building, it is
beautiful --- a real work of art, but from a cultural point of view, it had the very mixed effect, mostly negative as far as culture goes, on the
native Americans as did the earlier missions in California.
Your goal of correcting facts surrounding dates, etc. is good and is a part of the history; a history that overall some of us see as a very negative
happening.
[Edited on 12-29-2013 by DianaT]
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David K
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You are not the one who has twice now (next to your replies) questioned my religion and made derogatory comments about Catholics... if I can see it,
surely you can too? Thank you, have a nice weekend.
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elbeau
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by DianaT...And if you are going to write, you will receive reviews, good, bad and indifferent. And to disagree with some
of your conclusions does not devalue your work... |
Um...are you saying that you're reviewing DK's book which you apparently haven't even laid eyes on?
Exactly which of his book's conclusions do you disagree with?
Anyone who's got the book knows how laughable it is for you to say this.
Please read the book...he's offering it to you for free...then come back to this thread and enlighten us about all the things in it that you disagree
with.
wow
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by elbeau
| Quote: | | Originally posted by DianaT...And if you are going to write, you will receive reviews, good, bad and indifferent. And to disagree with some
of your conclusions does not devalue your work... |
Um...are you saying that you're reviewing DK's book which you apparently haven't even laid eyes on?
Exactly which of his book's conclusions do you disagree with?
Anyone who's got the book knows how laughable it is for you to say this.
Please read the book...he's offering it to you for free...then come back to this thread and enlighten us about all the things in it that you disagree
with.
wow |
No, I guess I did not make it clear. I am NOT reviewing his book. That was a generic statement as a response to him referring to disagreement with
books as soiling books which it does not. Strictly generic as when ever anyone does any writing for others, everyone who reads it becomes a reviewer
--- how well I know --- and for that, one needs to be prepared.
I just disagree with his conclusions that he freely states here on this forum--- his DEFENSE of the the mission system as having been an overall good
thing that spread "civilization". And I disagree that his source books are strictly factual and without bias. He is free to see it that way; it is
his opinion. Others share a very different opinion about the results of the mission system.
I would not disagree with his dates, locations, etc. and I keep wishing him good luck with the book.
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elbeau
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
No, I guess I did not make it clear. I am NOT reviewing his book. That was a generic statement as a response to him referring to disagreement with
books as soiling books which it does not. Strictly generic as when ever anyone does any writing for others, everyone who reads it becomes a reviewer
--- how well I know --- and for that, one needs to be prepared.
...I just disagree with...his DEFENSE of the the mission system as having been an overall good thing that spread "civilization"
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So, you're just worried for his sake that he's not prepared for a possible onslaught of criticism from book reviewers who have actually read his book?
...I'm still not following your train of thought and more than that I just don't believe that you're being honest about whatever it is that's got you
so wound up that you want to warn people about this book you've never seen.
It's just weird Diana, there's something else behind your arguments here.
Just look at the very first thing you said in response to him listing titles of his sources: "All of what you have listed are someone else's
interpretation of primary and secondary sources...History is about 5% facts and 95% interpretation...But the heart of what something like the Mission
system was, is a matter of interpretation, bias, and not fact...if you make money from your efforts, good for you. Most people touring places like the
missions are really only interested in that 5% of tangible facts"
There is so much wrong with this first bunch of garbage that you spewed at him that it's hard to know where to start. I mean, the first sentence you
wrote is not just a little factually wrong, you either decided to make that statement without even attempting to see if it was true (something I
wouldn't expect from someone like yourself who touts masters degree in history) or you knew it was a lie and said it anyways. How can you possibly
say "all that [he] has listed are others interpretations of primary sources". He lists plenty of primary sources. You either lied (a trait in an
historian that is even worse than opinions) or you were so caught up in wanting to disparage him that you didn't care to check. That's not cool at
all.
That same post is not subtle about trying to give people the impression that you have judged the content of his book to be 95% interpretation...but
you have never even seen his book. Give me a break. The irony is that you're the one arguing on behalf of books that only spout facts while he's the
one writing books that match that description quite well...then you criticize him for it without even knowing what you're talking about.
This isn't about you defending the ancient inhabitants of the peninsula against DK's view of "civilization"...that argument emerged long after you
started this weirdness and you're not even quoting him correctly when you put quotation marks around that word. The term "civilization" was first
brought up by you in your mockery of the introduction to the book about Konscak but after DK wrote his opinion (which I disagree with btw) that the
mission system was desirable for the natives.
Give us a break. Whatever it is that's actually motivating you to want to stir people up against DK, don't take it out on a book that you're
completely ignorant about.
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David K
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Thank you for the time spent in this thread... I made it to show my sources for Baja mission history, which I am writing about here on Nomad, for
Discover Baja Travel Club and have for Baja Bound Insurance.
The title "Fact or Fiction" was to indicate that books on mission history are not consistent and some books don't agree with each other... an article
on that may be of interest? Even the good works of recent authors like Harry Crosby and Edward Vernon (I know them both personally) have 'errors' when
compared to the actual writings of the missionaries of the time.
My new book is not error-free, but it was more the case of typos for us... (with the latest printing those get corrected and they are posted on our
Facebook page so updating can be done by all older edition owners).
As for Diana T's comments about my responses... It wasn't just you I responded to... yet you took it personally. The other Nomad who twice commented
about my religion or motives was who I was addressing. What he said more than you said was an absolute attempt to soil this thread and had nothing to
do with content discussion... akin to book burning, in my opinion.
Now DT, if you were really interested in the book to be fair with what you have to say about it, I offered one free to you... as I know you haven't
bought one. It isn't a scholarly work, and I am sure the English grammar and punctuation is not perfect (remember I am only 1/3 of the book's authors
and Max actually did the data entry I gave him).
The book is designed to convey how the missions were founded: who, what, when, where, why, how... in the short, simple format. One page per each
mission for text and a page for photos. There are also chapters on how the Spanish came to California, what the three mission orders were about, and
maps to show where in the three states of California the missions are placed... a couple of historic maps, too. A lot of data, and we think twenty
bucks with free shipping is a reasonable price to ask.
The book fits in your glove box so as you travel about California (Baja & Alta) you will have the basic data on every mission without prejudice to
what country you are in or how prosperous the mission was.
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DianaT
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elbeau --- you are free to interpret things as you see fit and make personal assumptions based on your interpretation. That is what it is all
about!
Again, I have nothing against his book and over and over I wish him well. I know he says he is not making any money, but that may change if the
volume of sales increase, and for him, that would be a good thing.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
....
The book is designed to convey how the missions were founded: who, what, when, where, why, how... in the short, simple format. One page per each
mission for text and a page for photos. There are also chapters on how the Spanish came to California, what the three mission orders were about, and
maps to show where in the three states of California the missions are placed... a couple of historic maps, too. A lot of data, and we think twenty
bucks with free shipping is a reasonable price to ask.
The book fits in your glove box so as you travel about California (Baja & Alta) you will have the basic data on every mission without prejudice to
what country you are in or how prosperous the mission was. |
Yes, that is EXACTLY what I have been saying! That is your book, and it has a place! A lot of DATA. BTW--- I have briefly seen a copy. DATA, DATA,
DATA and that is what many people want.
But DK--- please stop with the soiling and burning references. And yes, I knew to whom you were referring, but it was just another opinion, and not
soiling as you call it.
[Edited on 12-29-2013 by DianaT]
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
elbeau --- you are free to interpret things as you see fit and make personal assumptions based on your interpretation. That is what it is all
about!
Again, I have nothing against his book and over and over I wish him well. I know he says he is not making any money, but that may change if the
volume of sales increase, and for him, that would be a good thing. |
I said I make 1/3 of about $5 per book... not enough to live on, no. I didn't agree to work with Max and Erline for the money, I did it so the Baja
missions could have the best facts available for everyone's benefit.
I have authored two guidebooks on Baja when I was a teenager and co-authored a book on irrigation in 1992... I am no stranger to writing how to or
information guides. An editor from Sunbelt connected me to Max (they had published his El Camino Real and its Historic Bells book) when he was working
on a new book about the California missions.
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academicanarchist
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There are a handful of accounts recorded as presented by natives who had lived in missions, such as that of Lorenzo Asisara (dictated to Alphonse
Pinart), that narrated the murder of a Franciscan missionary at Santa Cruz mission in 1812. The natives ritually mutilated the missionary, which was
an expression of their view of mission life. Manuel Rojo recorded accounts by former mission residents in northern Baja California in the 1850s as
well.
The key to debates oveer historical issues is "respect," and not letting a debate degenerate into a peeing match, as this thread recently has done. I
have known David K. for many years, and may not agree with all that he writes about the missions. However, I do not ask questions that are irrelevant
such as what his religious beliefs might be, and I certainly do not engage in peeing matches because I may disagree with him.
The bottom line to understanding the missions is that they evolved in and as part of a colonial system predicated on the culturally chauvinistic
assumption held by all Europeans who came to the Americas, that the native peoples of the Americas were inherently inferior and had to be "civilized."
The missionaries functioned as agents of the colonial state. There is no secret about that. In the 1630s, the Puritans in New England launched a
genocidal war against the Pequots for fun and profit (Pequot survivors were sold into slavery). In the 1550s, the Spanish launched a war to try to
exterminate the Chichimecas. It was all part and parcel of the same EUropean colonial agenda. We can debate how this played out in Baja California,
but with respect.
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academicanarchist
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Let me add that in the 30 odd years I have been writing about missions, I have made extensive use of primary sources written by missionaries. I
recognize their bias and perspective, but do not discount them because of the views that they held hundreds of years ago.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
An opinion made in recent years... perhaps to be 'politically correct'?
The truth is that the Indians enslaved each other, murdered each other, and if anything, the Spanish halted that activity when they instructed them to
become civilized and live in a community of mutual benefit.
Sure, it totally changed their way of life... but as the documents show, the Indians came to the missions willingly, by the hundreds, to change their
life. Perhaps being naked and hungry wasn't as much fun as having a purpose in a community and eating pozole instead of bugs, bats, and
lizards? |
i detect a bias,...
why do you think the pre-contact natives lacked purpose in a community? what's your evidence they did not have fulfilling communities?
and why do you think they ate bugs, bats and lizards? from what i understand many (most? all?) of the natives migrated seasonally between inland and
coast, and probably had varied diet.
for your next book, would be interesting if you tried to live for one year as a pre-contact native and chronicle the experience,...
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The truth is that the Indians enslaved each other, murdered each other, and if anything, the Spanish halted that activity |
the spanish never enslaved or murdered the indians?
[Edited on 12-30-2013 by mtgoat666]
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by academicanarchist
The bottom line to understanding the missions is that they evolved in and as part of a colonial system predicated on the culturally chauvinistic
assumption held by all Europeans who came to the Americas, that the native peoples of the Americas were inherently inferior and had to be "civilized."
The missionaries functioned as agents of the colonial state. |
I think that it important to keep that in
perspective when reading any accounts written during the period.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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David K
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Goat, I said the Spanish halted the Indians from enslaving and murdering each other. I never said the Spanish were innocent of doing evil, but
generally the missionaries were not cruel and frequently saved the Indians from punishment or death by the soldiers. The current New-Speak popular
teaching is that the Europeans were the only evil ones in the world, and if they never came to the Americas all would be wonderful. Just isn't
reality, so that's why I mentioned how barbarous the Indians also were to each other.
The purpose of this thread WAS so anyone interested could read the same sources I read... if you wanted the bigger story. I use the sources to CORRECT
errors made by some authors (and INAH) when providing the data for each mission (date, location, name, etc.). I am into details, not theology. Stuff
happened. That I write about it doesn't mean I approve of it or condone it. Is that really hard to understand? Thank you.
[Edited on 12-30-2013 by David K]
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academicanarchist
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Good morning from Mexico City. In the 1580s a man named Diego de Camargo wrote a manuscript called the History of Tlaxcala, which also contains a
collection of drawings. The original manuscript is now found in the University of Glasgow. One of the images shows the execution by hanging and
burning of a group of natives, including a woman, accused of idolatry, or in other words of continuing to practice their old religious beliefs. A
group of Franciscans observe the execution. This image documents one of many instances of punishments, including capital punishment, of natives who
did not embrace the new faith. Juan de Zumarraga, a Franciscan and the first bishop of Mexico, initiated the inquisition campaign, and one of the high
profile cases was of don Carlos, the tlatoani or political leader of Texcoco. Zumarraga had don Carlos burned at the state on December 1, 1539, after
being judged for hereditary dogmatism, or not fully collaborating with the Franciscans in their morals campaign.
Although prohibited, missionaries in central Mexico used corporal punishment against natives who did not toe the line. The forms of corporal
punishment the missionaries used were alien to native culture. The missionaries stationed on the northern frontier, including on the missions of Baja
California and California, routinely used different forms of corporal punishment. The 1812 answers to a set of questions sent by the Spanish
government describe the forms of corporal punishment, as well as do other documents. Manuel Rojo, the Chilean who worked for the Mexican government in
northern Baja California, recorded one account dictated by a native that described the forms of corporal punishment. The natives at Santa Cruz mission
who killed Andres Quintana, O.F.M. did so because he whipped the natives with a whip that he had added small pieces of metal to. These were not
isolated incidents, but rather the norm.
Years ago The Academy of American Franciscan History published collections of documents written by Franciscan missionaries. Francis Guest, O.F.M.,
engaged in creative transslation when he translated the Spanish word "beat" as in beaten into slap, to soften what the missionaries had written. The
same Franciscan published an article years ago that examined the interpretation of SF Cook on the treatment of natives in the California missions. In
his apologia Guest argued that the use of corporal punishment on the native populations was acceptable, because it was a cultural norm in contemporary
Spain. However, and this is the key point, it was not a norm in native cultures, and was cruel by native standards. Guest and other Franciscans of
like mind try to ignore or change the reality of the common practice of corporal punishment.
Slavery certainly did exist in native cultures in central Mexico (not in Baja California), but it was different in concept from chattel slavery
introduced by the Spaniards. Theree were culturally accepted norms of treatment of slaves which were much milder than the norms introduced by the
Spaniards.
As I stated in a previous post, the bottom line is that the Spanish and all Europeans who came to America held ideas of cultural superiority, and held
the natives to be inferior and to be exploited for the benefit of the Spanish. The missionaries viewed the natives as "children with beards," or as
being childlike and intellectually inferior. The missions were a part of a larger exploitative colonial system.
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academicanarchist
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The second relevant point is that the natives in Mexico, including Baja Californiia, lived in communities, that were different from the Spanish norm.
Dietary standards were also different. People in Mexico and other areas in the world consume things that most gringos would not touch. Oaxaca, for
example, is known for the consumption of grasshoppers and different types of worms that grow on cultivated plants such as the maguey. The Spanish
introduced wheat to Mexico, because they refused to eat corn, which in their mind was an inferior indigenous grain not fit for their consumption.
Standards of dietary consumption was another example where the Spaniards showed extreme cultural bias.
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academicanarchist
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I am posting a link to the Lienzo de Tlaxcala at the University of Glasgow. The link does not contain the image I mentioned, but two others. One shows
the execution of a native who the missionaries found making a blood in a cave. The second shows the burning of idols, and a native priest.
http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/jan2003.html
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David K
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Mexico in the 1500's
| Quote: | Originally posted by academicanarchist
I am posting a link to the Lienzo de Tlaxcala at the University of Glasgow. The link does not contain the image I mentioned, but two others. One shows
the execution of a native who the missionaries found making a blood in a cave. The second shows the burning of idols, and a native priest.
http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/jan2003.html |
Thank you Robert... I also read that the Franciscans were more brutal than the Jesuits and the Dominicans were as well...
From academicanachist's link:
Before the European brutality, the Native Americans practicing their religion?
Here is one that academicanachist emailed me to share here:
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academicanarchist
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I am attaching the other image from the lienzo de tlaxcala that I mentioned in an earlier post. In the introductory chapter to my most recent book I
discuss cases of idolatry, and how the missionaries responded to the growing evidence of the superficiality of what they believed to have been the
conversion of the native population. Another early issue was the baptismal controversy, or mass baptisms of natives with little or no previous
indoctrination.
[Edited on 1-4-2014 by academicanarchist]
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