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David K
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Guess you made a good point and it aroused no dissension?
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monoloco
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OK I'll bite. I doubt than anyone knows exactly to what degree Serra was culpable in mistreating
the natives but it certainly seems, from his own writings, that he supported whippings and other punishments of the people whose land the padres
claimed dominion over. Based on that alone, I really don't see how he could be considered a "saint". What exactly were the two miracles (a condition
of sainthood) that he supposedly performed?
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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güéribo
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Just don't think we'll convince one another here! But thanks for engaging in the question.
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David K
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http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-miracle28-2009aug28-story...
Part of that article:
Serra, the revered and reviled Franciscan priest who founded California's missions, has one officially recognized miracle to his name. A nun in
St. Louis was healed of lupus after praying to him, leading to Serra's beatification in 1987.
But sainthood requires a second miracle, defined by the church as an event that cannot be explained by science but can be attributed to the
candidate's intercession from beyond the grave.
Two years ago, Serra advocates thought they had found one. A Denver woman who had prayed to Serra delivered a healthy baby, despite a dire prognosis.
The case went to Rome, but physicians for the Vatican concluded it was not a miracle.
Now there's another possibility. Sheila E. Lichacz, a Panamanian artist, has survived 14 brain surgeries for tumors called meningiomas, after being
told time and again that she was dying. One-third of her skull was removed in surgery and replaced with acrylic plates. But they too were removed
after causing life-threatening infections.
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monoloco
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Those "miracles" seem like quite a stretch to me. The first miracle supposes that the nun who was cured only prayed to father Serra exclusively, which
is kind of hard to believe. I would guess that a devote Catholic nun would also pray to the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost, as well as to the
Virgin Mary and perhaps other saints, making it quite impossible to credit Fr. Serra with the claimed miracle, but then again, religion in general
doesn't stand up to reason. LOL
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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academicanarchist
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Serra was the architect of the California missions, and implemented policies and rules that had been established by the Spanish from dayone of the
conquest of Mexico.
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academicanarchist
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I will read the article about Mendoza with care when I can, but I do agree with two points, in a critical way. Firstly, supporters of canonization
have misrepresented the historical record, and have tried to present the history of Serra and the missions in an ahistorical fashion. Second, the
process has been politicized, but by supporters and advocates of canonization.
Mendoza is an archaeologist, and his writings have narrowly focused on the description of material culture and architectural history as uncovered
through excavations at mission and non-mission sites that date to the Spanish period in California, such as Monterey Presidio. He has published
several articles in the journal "Boletin: Journal of the California Mission Studies Association." He most recently published an article describing
excavations at Nra Sra de la Soledad mission. One of the problems that I have had over the years with many archaeologists is that they focus on the
description of the artifact assemblages, and offer little or no analysis. In other words, there is no discussion of what the archaeological record
shows about historical processes. This certainly is the case with what Mendoza has published. Paul Farnsworth is also an archaeologist who worked
years ago on the Soledad mission site. I co-authored an article with him that went beyond the description of artifact assemblages and architectural
features to analyze how the archaeological record related to processes of social and cultural change, and in the changing political context of the
missions. Following the outbreak of the independence movemenet in Mexico in 1810, funding for the military in California dried up. The Franciscans
expanded agricultural production and textile production to supply the costs of the military. This shift in focus was reflected in the archaeological
record at Soledad that Farnsworth documented through the analysis of the material culture. The article appeared in a book I co-edited titled "The New
Latin American Mission History," and Farnsworth wrote his doctoral dissertation based on his excavations at Soledad. Mendoza has been working on the
historical archaeology of Spanish California for many years, but has not gone beyond description to contribute to a better understanding of historical
processes.
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Ateo
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Miracles = BS
Sometimes people who are sick get well.
Sometimes people who are sick die.
A miracle would be an amputee veteran growing back limbs. Wonder why that never happens?
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vgabndo
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I find it really amazing when I hear people say "It is a miracle he/she survived that accident." "God certainly had his hand on her/him." The fact
that the 9-1-1 system resulted in a fully equipped ambulance full of highly trained trauma specialists arriving within minutes, and being able to get
the victim to a multi-million dollar emergency room facility with scientific life support systems beyond the wildest fever dreams of the committee who
wrote the Bible is normally completely forgotten.
Can anyone lead me to a reputable report of any middle eastern scribe, writer, or historian who was working at the time that Jesus supposedly lived,
and who reported on the phenomenon of a guy running around performing miracles all over the place? It seems that all those claims were generated
hundreds of years later by guys with no last names.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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TMW
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Let me tell a true story and you decide if it was a miracle or just luck or what ever.
Several years ago I did the maintenance on the TV stations transmitters. It was time to replace the water cooling filters for the main transmitter.
The job required about two hours. The station signed off at 1:30 am and signed on at 5:30 am. I had that 4 hour time frame to do the job. The
transmitter was located on Breckenridge Mtn east of Bakersfield, CA. It was winter time and cold with some snow on the ground.
I headed up Breckenridge Rd planning on getting to the site by 1 am. All the parts etc I needed was already there. As I approached the 5000 foot level
I came upon a large pile of rock and dirt that had fallen away from the side of the Mtn. There was no way to get around. It was 8 miles or so to the
site so walking was out of the question.
I back up for about 1/4 mile being careful on this winding mostly single lane road. On one side is a 300+ foot drop-off and the other side the
embankment. I found a spot to turn around and I proceeded down the Mtn. As I drove I was thinking should I just forget it for tonight and come back
another day when the road is open. I could go up the Kern river canyon hwy 178 to Lake Isabella and take the Bodfish hwy to Breckenridge Rd. That is
the east side of the Mtn. That would allow me to come up the back way to the transmitter site. However to do so would take more time than I may have
and it was already getting foggy. By the time I got down the Mtn and out to Comanche Dr it was 1 am.
While trying to decide for some reason I kept moving to hwy 178. I thought I would probably get to the site at around 3 am or before if I can see the
turn off. I had only been that way once and that was in daylight. It would give me just enough time to do the job. Once on Bodfish hwy the fog was
getting worse and it was hard to see anything to the side of the hwy where the sign would be.
After about 10 miles of winding Rd I was able to make out the Breckenridge sign. I turn and up the Mtn I go. As I went up higher the fog was getting
thinner but there was snow and ice on the road. As I approached a turn about 4 miles from the site I see a small truck with is rear wheels in the
ditch to my left. As I get closer I see someone setup in the cab. I slow to a stop and out of the truck come a man. He is only wearing a hoodie
sweatshirt and jeans. I rolled my window down and he says, "man I am sure glad you came along. I have been here since noon and no one has been by
until you. I'm really low on gas and have used my heater as little as possible, I thought I was going to freeze to death". He was just out for a drive
up into the mountains to see the snow but when he got as far as he did the snow was getting deeper and since he did not have a 4x4 he decide to turn
around. In doing so he backed into the ditch and could not get out.
I hooked a tow strap to him and pulled him out and he thanked me and we went on our different ways. I went to the transmitter and performed the
maintenance and was finished just before sign on.
I have often thought of this and wonder if it was divine guidance that had me go around to help this guy or was it just luck or just the way things
happen.
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TMW
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Quote: Originally posted by vgabndo  |
Can anyone lead me to a reputable report of any middle eastern scribe, writer, or historian who was working at the time that Jesus supposedly lived,
and who reported on the phenomenon of a guy running around performing miracles all over the place? It seems that all those claims were generated
hundreds of years later by guys with no last names.
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There are no original writings of the new testament. They are all copies and copies of copies.
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vgabndo
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If the guy was sitting in his truck, blue, rigid, and obviously dead of carbon monoxide poisoning and hypothermia, and you opened his door and touched
his corpse and he suddenly shook-off the icicles, turned pink, and started thanking you. THAT would be a miracle. The fact that he was stuck on the
only alternate route to where you were needed/required to be was fortunate for him.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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elbeau
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Others will doubtless chalk this up to coincidence, but here's something I consider to be a miracle:
When I was 19 years old, I was working as an LDS (Mormon) missionary in Shreveport, Louisiana. We were going door-to-door one day and came up to a
house with a large bay kitchen window to the left of their front door.
Right as we knocked on the door, something inside the house went WHAM! against that bay window. My fellow missionary and I looked at each other with
perplexed looks, then right as a man answered the door it happened again and this time we saw it. There was a bird inside their kitchen that was
trying to fly out the window.
The man who answered the door took one look at us and started waving his hands for us to leave, saying "no, no, no" as he began to shut the door. I
interrupted him and said "that's ok...but did you know there's a bird in your kitchen?". He gave me a look of distrust that I'll never forget as he
tried to figure out what kind of trick I was trying to pull on him.
"No, really, there's a bird in your kitchen" I said, and as I said it the bird made some louder noises so they guy took a look. He saw the bird,
grabbed a towel, and started chasing it around the kitchen. Meanwhile, me and the other missionary were still standing on the front porch.
I asked "do you want us to help?". From somewhere in the depths of the house his wife's voice rang out "ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!". But he said "yeah, come
on in". Liking his answer better, we entered and he gave us a couple of kitchen towels to chase the bird with.
For a couple of minutes we chased that bird around his house. Finally it ended up flying into his study and hiding behind some books on a bookshelf.
We put a towel at the end of the row of books then pushed each book in one at a time until the bird went into his towel. He had us open the study
window and as he let it loose it grabbed onto the outside of the screen and sat there for several seconds. It was a BEAUTIFUL woodpecker. It then
flew away.
We were all a little winded from the chase (it was a very nimble bird), so he asked us to sit down and offered us some water or lemonade or something,
so we sat and laughed with him about it for a minute.
Now, being LDS missionaries, we were definitely thinking that God was putting us in a situation to share our message with this man, but we were wrong.
It was what he said as he declined our offer this second time that struck me. He said "No, but my daughter up in Arkansas is joining your church and
we've been pretty hard on her about it. Maybe God is trying to tell me something."
Over the years I've seen a lot of people go through hard times with family and friends who didn't like their choice to join our church. As I think
back on it, I'm pretty sure that my woodpecker story is actually only half of a story.
That woodpecker was the only thing that could have got us through that door that day. I'll never know much about the other half of this story, but
I'm quite certain that it involves a girl asking her Father in Heaven to help her parents accept her choice.
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David K
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I am just happy that God has inspired you to search the past so we may better understand life as it was before 'modern times'. Now find us some more
ruins out in nowhere! Thank you!
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DianaT
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There it is, loud and clear --- YOUR BIAS.
Nothing wrong with having a bias as everyone does, and all of history is biased. Even the letters and accounts written at the time are BIASED.
But please, quit saying that your writings are only "facts and the truth".
The book that started this thread is also biased. Oral history is powerful and as "truthful" as any written history and it is also biased.
Good historians understand. Put the same primary and secondary sources in front of 5 historians and they will write 5 different interpretations of
the information. It is just the way it is.
Your bias is that you believe that you believe the Spanish were superior and that colors how you see all of the information. Again, it is just the
way it is.
[Edited on 4-2-2015 by DianaT]
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David K
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Stop with the talking points and include the rest of my reply. To the natives the Spanish provided food without hunting. Built houses with roofs.
Communicated with 'talking paper'. The natives were wowed and saw the Spanish as advanced and that was an attraction to join the missions.
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elbeau
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Oh No! People have biases? That's unexpected, amazing, and scary!
I can never believe anything DK or anyone ever says again!
EVERYONE TO THEIR BATTLE-STATIONS! We must attack DK for sharing his opinions!!!
geesh...calm down.
Even if your assault on his biases mattered, you completely misrepresented what he was saying. Go read the statement, he was clearly trying to
describe things from the Indians' point of view. He wasn't saying that he thinkd of them as "advance beings".
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DianaT
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Not attacking him for his opinions, as you say. And yes they are OPINIONS.
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elbeau
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Thank you for clearing that up.
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DianaT
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | Stop with the talking points and include the rest of my reply. To the natives the Spanish provided food without hunting. Built houses with roofs.
Communicated with 'talking paper'. The natives were wowed and saw the Spanish as advanced and that was an attraction to join the missions.
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And can you quote a NATIVE American source that backs that up, or is that taken from the writings of the priests who all felt superior?
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