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vgabndo
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"So the Christian community is responsible for the actions of Pat Robertson?" I took this to be a question, and the short answer would have been YES.
I'm only good a short when it is in the category of stature.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Does anyone still have the link to the Harrison's 90 minute lecture on the absence of self will? I feel like getting depressed.
[Edited on 6-26-2012 by Skipjack Joe] |
Igor if you mean Harris, here is Sam's website. You can find everything here. And I do mean everything 
http://www.samharris.org/ |
Ken,
After digging into this a bit, admittedly not as much as you, I feel it's too early to talk about the absence of free will.
His entire argument seems to be based upon the neurological observations of brain activity in a cause and effect manner that begats further effect, ad
infinitum. A sort of determinism that never ends from birth until death. A predetermined chain of events that we have no control over.
So we have some information of how the brain works. That we are bombarded with unconscious brain events and some are acted upon without any choice on
our part. And from this we draw major conclusions about free will.
Well, before deciding if there is free will you have to decide what is I. In the sentence:
I choose.
it seems to me we have to know what 'I' is at the physical level before the choose part. And the best guess is that 'I' is just a series of brain
events that make it to our consciousness mind.
All of this is very unsatisfactory to my way of thinking. It's unsatisfactory because it's so primitive. The collection of human thoughts through the
ages is far too rich to be adequately described by the handful of discoveries about human brains.
How is it that people like Shakespeare and Byron can tell us more about love than the brain scientists that know the 'truth'. These people knew
nothing about brain chemistry yet their words resonate more richly on the subject than the chemists.
I remember watching a program on Nova titled something like 'What is Love'. In it a series of tests where done on people who were in love showing
their changing hormone levels, their heart rates, and brain activity in certain areas.
"This is love?", I thought to myself. This is the best we can do? Spare me please. The Romantics of the 19th century knew a thousand times more than
this. The Bible, the Buddhists all have a 1000 times more to offer.
Of all the things you wrote on religion and the afterlife on this thread, Ken, the most meaningful in an inner sense was the one you wrote about your
deceased friend. And yet this was declared to be false. Well, why does falseness feel as though it's closer to reality than reality? Why doesn't truth
feel as enriching as the lies?
Perhaps that explains why people aren't dropping their bibles and rushing to brain chemistry. So far it does little to quench the soul. It does so by
conveniently denying that it exists. It doesn't even understand what religion provides. It spends all of it's energy on where religion erred. Past
human attempts at understanding what is felt within is mocked with a series of logical explanations that are irrelevant to a search for inner truth.
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Ken Bondy
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Igor
We look at things very differently amigo. You are skeptical about Harris's work because, I think, you are wishing for something else, something
outside the brain which is somehow part of consciousness. I don't need supernatural things, they serve no purpose for me. I find Harris's work
thrilling, beautiful, and well.....spiritual. The idea that all these things discussed in this thread originated in an evolved biological organ, our
brains, and that we are now beginning to understand what goes on in there, is to me much more exciting and awe-inspiring than any religious fairy
tales. I simply don't need anything outside the physical world to satisfy my spiritual nature.
I agree with you about the great writers of the past like Shakespeare and Byron. Their work is infinitely more beautiful and inspiring than the bible,
which is inherently evil and repulsive. How did Shakespeare and Byron accomplish what they did? Because they had brains that let them do it. Nothing
more, nothing less is necessary to explain this.
Your take on my tribute to a deceased friend is bewildering to me Igor. Declaring it to be "false" is misleading. The feelings expressed in those
words were true, even though I knew Jim wasn't bouncing around the universe or flying old airplanes or lying on Baja beaches. It was simply a poetic
tribute, in words, to an old friend who had died. Please don't read anything more into it, or try to turn it into a "gotcha" moment. It does not mean
that I have a secret, repressed belief in some imaginary beings or stories.
People are not dropping their bibles and rushing to brain chemistry because the science of brain chemistry is at its infancy, and religion has had a
stranglehold on humanity for centuries. As I said, religion resides in that ever-shrinking part of human experience that has not yet been explained by
science. I am confident that when people have a choice between rational thinking and superstition, they will choose rationality and the bibles will
drop.
carpe diem!
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Mexitron
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Well, one could make the argument that all the events that have unfolded since the Big Bang are part of a logical sequential chain of cause and
effect---gravity wells turn into monster black holes and create galaxies and stars, planets form, bacteria appear, life evolves into more complex
organisms...all still part of the original forces from the Big Bang. So at what point could free will possibly suddenly appear? How can we
extricate ourselves from the flow of the universe and say "I choose?"
That was the best argument for pre-determinism, I always thought...however the discoveries in the quantum world probably shoot holes in that
argument---in the quantum world nothing is certain, only probabilistic. In fact, there are those physicists who observe quantum behavior that think
they are watching the universe create itself at that moment----that is, future and past emanate from this moment----this moment is all that truly
exists. To take it farther some say its like looking at the roots of consciousness...
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SFandH
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Thanks guys for keeping this thought provoking discussion going. I can't think of a way to contribute, my thoughts are far from crystallized.
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comitan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
Well, one could make the argument that all the events that have unfolded since the Big Bang are part of a logical sequential chain of cause and
effect---gravity wells turn into monster black holes and create galaxies and stars, planets form, bacteria appear, life evolves into more complex
organisms...all still part of the original forces from the Big Bang. So at what point could free will possibly suddenly appear? How can we
extricate ourselves from the flow of the universe and say "I choose?"
That was the best argument for pre-determinism, I always thought...however the discoveries in the quantum world probably shoot holes in that
argument---in the quantum world nothing is certain, only probabilistic. In fact, there are those physicists who observe quantum behavior that think
they are watching the universe create itself at that moment----that is, future and past emanate from this moment----this moment is all that truly
exists. To take it farther some say its like looking at the roots of consciousness... [/quote
Now I like this very much, but would substitute BEING
for consciousness. |
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Mexitron
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| Quote: | Originally posted by comitan
| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
Well, one could make the argument that all the events that have unfolded since the Big Bang are part of a logical sequential chain of cause and
effect---gravity wells turn into monster black holes and create galaxies and stars, planets form, bacteria appear, life evolves into more complex
organisms...all still part of the original forces from the Big Bang. So at what point could free will possibly suddenly appear? How can we
extricate ourselves from the flow of the universe and say "I choose?"
That was the best argument for pre-determinism, I always thought...however the discoveries in the quantum world probably shoot holes in that
argument---in the quantum world nothing is certain, only probabilistic. In fact, there are those physicists who observe quantum behavior that think
they are watching the universe create itself at that moment----that is, future and past emanate from this moment----this moment is all that truly
exists. To take it farther some say its like looking at the roots of consciousness... [/quote
Now I like this very much, but would substitute BEING
for consciousness. |
Good choice of words--I like that better too.  |
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Skipjack Joe
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Ken,
Yes, I want something else. In fact, I'm pretty sure you and everyone else wants something else. Who wants nothingness and the absence of free will.
Religion isn't something imposed on people. As I said earlier in this thread I believe religion is created by people. It answers questions that
science doesn't come close to answering. A theory of neuron behavior does nothing to answer those questions in any other way than a rational
explanation. Science will never be the new religion because it only fulfills a small part of man's needs.
Why is it that when you speak of the beauty of evolution it's a spiritual pleasure but those who worship the bible are simply superstitious? In fact
why use the concept of spiritualism if everything is materialistic?
My remarks about your remarks about Jim was not a "gotcha" moment. They were made to support the point that atheists who are completely rational
materialists use the language of poets and men of religion to make their points.
To me at this point, the idea of the beauty, inspiration, and spirituality of the physical properties of the universe seems inappropriate. If all you
believe is scientific truth than why use terminology and concepts that aren't supported by science.
Why not describe your feelings as the titillation of the hypothalamus? Isn't that being more consistent.
No - it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous because the world outside that realm is more real and necessary than you give it credit for.
-----------------------------------
My point was that until science can bridge the gap in understanding between a description of neurotransmition and the contents of a Shakespeare sonnet
there will be no acceptance on absence of a free will. Not from me. There may not be a free will but we're far from proving of disproving it.
--------------------------------------
Also this.
I don't like the idea of handing over the controls my understanding of my inner world to an 'expert'. Whether the expert is the church or Mr Harris. I
have recently come to this knowledge about myself. This 'personal truth' may seem irresponsible but there is something meaningful about it that no
outside teacher can provide with facts. And as I followed this thread I noticed that at least Shari and Baja Gringo go about it the same way. I
suspect many others as well.
So I am less impressed with these "four apocalypse" of atheism. They're just ideas to consider and put in a safe place.
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wessongroup
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Mexitron .. yep .. "consciousness" gets a big different, moving it into Quantum mechanics .. a truly fascinating world to venture into
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind–body_problem
[Edited on 6-27-2012 by wessongroup]
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Ken Bondy
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OK Igor you win. My hypothalamus is titillated.
The difference between the beauty of evolution and bible worship is that there is evidence for the truth of evolution.
[Edited on 6-27-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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shari
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Your take on my tribute to a deceased friend is bewildering to me Igor. Declaring it to be "false" is misleading. The feelings expressed in those
words were true, even though I knew Jim wasn't bouncing around the universe or flying old airplanes or lying on Baja beaches.
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Brother Ken...I am curious how you KNOW your friend isnt lying on a baja beach...just wondering if you have some inside info you can share?
All I know for sure is that I dont know for sure what happens after our body dies....I have some ideas but it's part of the great mystery of life.
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Ken Bondy
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<<Ken,
Yes, I want something else. In fact, I'm pretty sure you and everyone else wants something else. Who wants nothingness and the absence of free
will.>>
Igor PLEASE do not speak for me on this subject. I do NOT want something imaginary beyond the physical world. The physical world is NOT nothingness.
I find belief in ANYTHING without evidence to be repulsive.
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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<<Brother Ken...I am curious how you KNOW your friend isnt lying on a baja beach...just wondering if you have some inside info you can
share?>>
I wish he was, Sis, but when all evidence suggests that something is not true, then you have to go with the evidence. There is simply no evidence to
support a life after death, and I am very comfortable with that.
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
Well, one could make the argument that all the events that have unfolded since the Big Bang are part of a logical sequential chain of cause and
effect---gravity wells turn into monster black holes and create galaxies and stars, planets form, bacteria appear, life evolves into more complex
organisms...all still part of the original forces from the Big Bang. So at what point could free will possibly suddenly appear? How can we
extricate ourselves from the flow of the universe and say "I choose?"
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If you are taking a final exam with multiple choice questions and you choose answer "c" isn't that a choice. What proof is there that I was
predetermined to choose "c".
You answer was that based on the information I had in my brain I was bound to choose "c". But if I had a mishap the night before and didn't study and
had no idea what the answer was and chose "d". Was the mishap also predetermined and therefore answer "d" was predetermined?
Yes, I like the idea of the probability of events happening more than it's certainty. Although it doesn't change things very much really.
I don't know. Regarding free will it seems to me that the instigator of the free will, the conscious 'I' has to be first understood on a materialistic
basis. Then you proceed to see how that "I" is controlling actions. If it is or is it just a passive screen that's watched like at a theater?
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Your take on my tribute to a deceased friend is bewildering to me Igor. Declaring it to be "false" is misleading. The feelings expressed in those
words were true, even though I knew Jim wasn't bouncing around the universe or flying old airplanes or lying on Baja beaches.
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Brother Ken...I am curious how you KNOW your friend isnt lying on a baja beach...just wondering if you have some inside info you can share?
All I know for sure is that I dont know for sure what happens after our body dies....I have some ideas but it's part of the great mystery of life.
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Can't resist elaborating on this Sis. I think belief in an afterlife is actually dangerous. If people realized that they've only got one shot at
life, I think they would be kinder to each other in the one life we all have. The world would be a better place. If people knew that this is our one
and only life, it is unlikely that there would be a lot of airplanes flown into buildings.
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
<<Ken,
Yes, I want something else. In fact, I'm pretty sure you and everyone else wants something else. Who wants nothingness and the absence of free
will.>>
Igor PLEASE do not speak for me on this subject. I do NOT want something imaginary beyond the physical world. The physical world is NOT nothingness.
I find belief in ANYTHING without evidence to be repulsive. |
Ken,
You stated earlier in this thread that you believed there was nothing after death and you were comfortable with that. How am I not speaking for you?
There are 36 pages on this thread and I really don't feel like digging through it all now.
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shari
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OK brother ....no evidence? I'm going to share a story with you which when it happened, it sure made me have one of those WTF moments.
When Sirenita was about 4 or maybe 5, one day out of the blue she said to me...you know momma....I chose you. I saw you down there in the panga on the
lagoon and thought you would be a great mom.
Why on earth would she say that? Many women have gotten pregnant in the whale lagoon of Ojo de Liebre who were unable to conceive before...seems like
there are souls "up there" waiting to come back again....but the thought of one choosing it's host was most interesting....for what it's worth.
Seems to me there is alot of information about reincarnation...stories that I guess cant be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt...but still they make
one think.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Can't resist elaborating on this Sis. I think belief in an afterlife is actually dangerous. If people realized that they've only got one shot at
life, I think they would be kinder to each other in the one life we all have. The world would be a better place. If people knew that this is our one
and only life, it is unlikely that there would be a lot of airplanes flown into buildings. |
I heard the same argument made by Harris last night. That the 'Church' is actually does us a great disservice by bringing up eternity. We should
eliminate this idea so that we can 'try harder' to enjoy life. Sort of like Zorba the Greek who pulls himself out of bed to the window and digs his
fingers into it's frame as he is dying because he knows that outside the window is all that is real.
In truth Eternity is what man wants and the church is merely accomodating this desire. The lowering of importance of real life is only a corollary and
is not really true of most Christians I know. The atheists make a point about how good and evil exists with or without man. But eternity is what it's
all about with regards to religion, isn't it. It's the darkness that came with nightfall that drove early man to religion. And now it's Nothingness. I
don't care how much sugar the atheists put on it, it's still repulsive.
And I guess that's what I find distrustful about these atheists: they have a position. They produce statements about religion that are beneficial to
their way of thinking. For a realm that prides itself on objectivity there is a remarkable amount of omission of facts that doesn't support their take
on things. That's what has made me distrustful, Ken. Not a wish that things were different.
[Edited on 6-27-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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wessongroup
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Speaking of thinking .. do electron's have "free will" .. taking it down to another level, so to speak
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Ken Bondy
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<<And I guess that's what I find distrustful about these atheists: they have a position.>>
Wow, Igor, you are ONE tough critic. You distrust the atheist authors because they have.......a POSITION??? How horrible. And some of those
positions are even based upon......EVIDENCE??? Sam Harris even went to the trouble of getting a recent PhD in brain neuroscience at UCLA to support
his dastardly OPINIONS about what goes on in the brain. Shame on him for seeking truth. That's certainly worthy of our distrust. And compare those
evil atheists with the typical religious person, who claims with all certainty to KNOW things he/she could not possibly know - god exists, he/she
loves me, he/she listens to all my prayers, will send me to something called heaven if I believe in some person named jesus, will fry me in something
called hell if I don't.
Well, I'm stickin' with Harris and his nasty old POSITIONS
[Edited on 6-27-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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