Watched Nova with interest last night. About our expanding universe. It turns out that space is no longer just space. 95% of our universe is occupied
by "dark matter" and "dark energy". These can't be measured with our current instruments.
On the subject of free will, here's an interesting little mind experiment (this is from "Incognito" by Eagleman). Imagine you are driving your car in
the left lane of a one-way two-lane road and you want to change lanes over to the right lane. We've all done this hundreds of times. For those of
you who want to play the game, describe in words precisely the physical process you would go through to accomplish the lane change. I predict that
no-one who responds will get this right. When enough people have responded I will let the cat out of the bag.
Ah!!! Driving 101 - Signal. Check mirror. Look over the shoulder. GO when clear. Pull right hand down on wheel just enough for me and car get between
cars in right hand lane without hurting anyone. Pull over at next taco shop.
Loved and anticipated the comic responses to my driving question. But I'm still looking for at least one person who takes this seriously. I think
you will be surprised at what is lurking here. There are no tricks. Just describe carefully the actions you would take in a simple lane change from
the left lane to the adjacent right lane. No traffic, no tricks. Just tell me how you get from the left lane to the right lane.
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.
Since you're trying to make a point about subconscious thought I thought about anything like that in the process. Usually I change lanes when a
certain level of anxiety reaches me that I'm driving too slowly and making others angry. This is usually what triggers a lane change but I don't
believe that this is what you're looking for.
I'm actually a poor driver. I stare blankly at the road and daydream. However, I am paying attention to the road but at a different level. I know this
because I have an excellent driving record. At proper times I make the right decisions. It's weird but has worked for me all my life.
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.
Actually, bajadogs made my point. His lane change description would take him right off the road and through the taco stand.
Eagleman's point (similar to Harris) is that there is an immense amount of information stored in the brain to which we have no access. Our brain
knows how to make the lane change without thinking about it. It does it all the time. But if we think about it, as did bajadogs, we end up off the
road.
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.
Actually, bajadogs made my point. His lane change description would take him right off the road and through the taco stand.
Eagleman's point (similar to Harris) is that there is an immense amount of information stored in the brain to which we have no access. Our brain
knows how to make the lane change without thinking about it. It does it all the time. But if we think about it, as did bajadogs, we end up off the
road.
Well, for me anyway, that is nuts (I have not followed, read, or listened to "Harris" or "Eagleman") -------I "think" about every lane change before
I make it----------I take driving very seriously, and have never had a traffic accident that was in any way my fault. I have no idea why one would
"end up off the road" if they made deliberate decisions to change from the left lane to the right.
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.
Actually, bajadogs made my point. His lane change description would take him right off the road and through the taco stand.
Eagleman's point (similar to Harris) is that there is an immense amount of information stored in the brain to which we have no access. Our brain
knows how to make the lane change without thinking about it. It does it all the time. But if we think about it, as did bajadogs, we end up off the
road.
I understand your point. It's like walking. We make a decision to walk yet every knee bend and forward stride is not individually thought out.
Interestingly enough this is still part of our voluntary muscle system. Non voluntary is heart beat and breathing.
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.
Actually, bajadogs made my point. His lane change description would take him right off the road and through the taco stand.
Eagleman's point (similar to Harris) is that there is an immense amount of information stored in the brain to which we have no access. Our brain
knows how to make the lane change without thinking about it. It does it all the time. But if we think about it, as did bajadogs, we end up off the
road.
We're such good robots aren't we, complete with subroutines we don't need to be conscious of.
The direction this thread has turned reminds me of a writing assignment I required of my ninth-grade English students. Early in the term I asked them
to write complete directions similar to Ken's lane-changing task: tying your shoes, setting a fence post, posting a letter, taking your dog for a
walk, etc.
Then we read the results aloud in class. It was always a source of amusement to visualize a fence post 'covered' in dirt, shoes tied to each other,
or, with some horror, a pet dog suspended from the hallway coat rack.
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I did take it seriously. It's just that bajadogs pretty much covered it.
Actually, bajadogs made my point. His lane change description would take him right off the road and through the taco stand.
Eagleman's point (similar to Harris) is that there is an immense amount of information stored in the brain to which we have no access. Our brain
knows how to make the lane change without thinking about it. It does it all the time. But if we think about it, as did bajadogs, we end up off the
road.
We're such good robots aren't we, complete with subroutines we don't need to be conscious of.
-----some more than others, apparently. Almost every time I have gotten into trouble it was because I trusted my sub-conscious to guide me
thru--------I purposely don't do that much any more, but it does make things take much longer to do.
We understand that the three steering inputs to get that lane change made is "automatic". I look at that phenomenon like "macros" in excel, you
specify an action path and program that with only a single prompt to execute it.
(I won't even get into the inputs for that lane change on a motorcycle using counter-steering)
The foregoing has prompted me to consider that in my men's work, we put a lot of credence on "intuition". I can fit intuition into a non-spiritual
place where all of my genetic and "nurture" inputs are being normally scanned and acted upon (likely with a lot of free will) but in the absence of a
lot of filtering. By filtering I mean the alteration of the way I am perceiving reality as a result of basic feelings of the moment. Like: fear,
anger, altruism, etc.
If I could remain adequately calm and purposeful I feel I could access my "intuition" in a positive way and utilize to best advantage all of the moral
philosophy and non-kneejerk "stuff" I have crammed into this brain.
I used to trust my intuition about where all the other cars were around me in traffic. My normal constant scanning of the mirrors kept a good
semi-conscious picture in my mind. These days I double-check everything, including (especially) in the parking lot. I just ain't what I used to ..Oh,
look, a butterfly.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will?
Ken
It's the argument that the brain is so loaded with subroutines and instructions to the body in which we have no access or control (like changing
lanes) that we de facto have no free will.
++Ken++
Originally posted by tripledigitken
What's the linkage to lack of free will?
Ken
It's the argument that the brain is so loaded with subroutines and instructions to the body in which we have no access or control (like changing
lanes) that we de facto have no free will.
++Ken++
[Edited on 7-1-2012 by Ken Bondy]
My truck is loaded with all kinds of subroutines but it still goes where I tell it to.....Baja!
"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen.
The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back
if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Theodore Roosevelt
"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes
"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others
cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn
"The best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." - Cunningham's Law
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