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Lee
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Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Packoderm
Illegal immigration became an especially important issue to me at just about the time I had to abandon my construction trade because I cannot compete
with workers who can work more cheaply because their families are partially supported by our public support system. I cannot claim 7 or more
dependents and then forget about it come tax time. I am not truly bilingual. I feel that I was squeezed out of my livelihood, but nobody is waving any
flags for me in any march or protest. It would be wrong (racist) to do so. |
It's not right or just what you've had to go through and sorry you've suffered because of his group. Unfortunately, discrimination against other
classes is the fallout. If I could wave a flag or protest in your favor, I'd do that. White people feel discrimination too. I''ll buy you a
beer sometime.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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Packoderm
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Thank you Lee. I think it all worked out for the best. I am on the tail end of what has been a long college career toward becoming a school teacher.
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Bajafun777
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Location: Rosarito & California
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Ok let's stop the nonesense. Race and discrimination have nothing to do with this illegal immigration issue, repeat illegal immigration in violation
of our U.S.C. Section of the Federal Law, so illegal immigration is violating our Country's law. Nobody is saying all of one nationally should all be
removed from the United States just those of any Country, repeat any Country, that breaks our Federal laws and enters our Country illegally and only
those that are here illegally should be deported. No one is saying to treat anyone inhumanely or they do not like Mexicans, so again stop the B.S.
This is what is causing the problem here in the U.S. is that people think yelling someone is discriminating it will make them stop standing up for
what is right. Again I follow Mexico's laws and if their Nationals come to the U.S. they need to follow our Country's law. With statements that
someone who is desperate has a right to violate a law is just wrong. So are we going to say if someone is desperate for sex they can rape, or if they
are desperate for money they can rob and harm your family, and let's not forget that if an illegal brings in a load of drugs well they were desperate
and needed the money. All of that is nonesense and has no place on this issue. We have, as Mexico has, a right to protect their borders and I am not
going to say they hate whites, black or chinese. Enough said so pop a beer or go for a walk and let's stop stressing everybody on nonesense.
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Lee
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Go back and read this thread carefully....
Fish started this by throwing his support for Grassfire -- to me an extremist organization, pure and simple.
From Grassfire: "Leaders in Washington are getting ready to pass an amnesty bill. Senate Leader Harry Reid is pushing to bring the amnesty bill to
the floor of the Senate immediately. Meanwhile, the Kennedy-McCain-Bush negotiations are finalizing details of their amnesty bill. All agree on
passing an amnesty bill as soon as possible.
Grassfire is leading the charge to stop these amnesty bills. If you want our borders secured and oppose amnesty, please sign this petition then alert
your friends."
Now, since I've stated I have no answers but am in favor of ammesty -- along with Kennedy-McCain-Bush -- I'd say these men have answers I don't.
BUSH IS IN FAVOR OF AMMESTY. I don't understand his thinking, but at least we agree on this subject.
No one is condoning the acts of desperate people or a US immigration program that hasn't been enforced for many years. Whatever the solutions to
the laws in place, I think the laws are being reinterpreted by, at least, these 3 men.
You don't have to agree with them and obviously alot of people here don't.
If everyone here believes there are no racists on this forum, that's their priviledge too.
Grassfire reads like an angry and racist diatribe. The kind of group that supports armed US para-military civilians ''helping out.''
Like it or not, ammesty is going to happen in one form or another.
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JESSE
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There is a reason why the most powerful nation on earth, with a 10 trillion economy cannot seem to find a way to close its southern border. And its
very simple to me, they need the labor. I don't think theres any reasonable person that truly thinks the US cannot close the border completely if it
wanted to. The problem with this situation, is that america as a society does not want immigrants, but, america as a nation needs them. Now, i know
many will say, "yes we support immigration, but we support legal immigration", but the problem is that legal immigration cannot deal with the demand
of your domestic market.
Heres some facts:
50 million americans report some sort of disability
The US population age 65 and over is expected to double in size within the next 25 years.
By 2030, almost 1 out of 5 Americans, some 72 million people, will be 65 years or older.
The age group 85 and older is now the fastest growing segment of the U.S. population.
In just 10 years, spending on the elderly will total nearly $1.8 trillion, almost half the federal budget.
The older population (persons 65 years or older) numbered 36.8 million in 2005 and represented 12.4% of the U.S. population, about one in every eight
Americans.
The U.S. birth rate has dropped to the lowest level since national data have been available.
The awnser is very clear to me, you have an older population, a declining birth rate, explosive growth in nations who are already challenging american
domination and power over the globe, and thus, a need for lots and lots of immigrants in order to keep up. Now, where are those millions going to come
from? would you like 20 million Chinese? Indians? how about some Pakistanis? or Nigerians? you wont find many europeans willing to come here in the
large numbers you need so forget that.
Stoping immigration is simply not an alternative, not unless you find a way to dramatically increase the birth rates of white americans, and thats not
going to happen.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Jesse: That is the best and most Accruate Report of this Thread!
Pacoderm: If you are having trouble getting a Job, or know anyone who needs a Job. Send them to the Texas Panhandle, we have need of all kinds of
Workers for all kinds of Jobs.
Just for Fun do a "Last name Survey of the Fresno County, Calif. City, County and State Employees . Most of these People came into this Area, worked
in the Fields, their Children going on to College and melting into the Culture. Many under the Amstrey Program of the Past.
There is not near enough workers to fill the Jobs of the Legals or Illegals!!
Who will Fill the Jobs??
Skeet/Loreto
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DENNIS
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Everybody here keeps saying the same things, over and over but, nobody listens to anybody but themselves. This forum isn't a place for discussion.
It's a place to hear ourselves talk. Amusing, really. The United States actually does have a work force. Too bad they're spread out around the
world in uniform.
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
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Location: Rosarito & California
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Dennis, you have a very valid point about our military men and women. I just had our agency hire one that just got back, we have a number of military
men and women returning to the workforce and we do owe them a job!! Lee, do I believe Amnesty is going to happen, you bet in some form or another.
Will I support this you bet if our Congress and our President put the law into effect. When this happens everyone should support it as it will be our
law. I have helped several Mexican Nationals get their American citizenship but we did it by the right way. Now I am conservative but I am not a
Republican, not that their is anything wrong with Republicans we just agree to disagree on a number of issues. I grew up working on the farm so I
picked cotton, hand hoed lettuce and cotton, picked cantalopes, worked preparing the fields for harvest, and worked in melons sheds to get myself
through college. The work was hard but it was the work that was available and I did it. We just give too many people choices of not working in the
United States like it is their right to stay home and not work. We have the workforce but unfortunately a large number are at home sitting on their
rear ends letting us take the burden with our taxes paying their way. I think a work program that allows people from another Country to come in work
and be able to go back and forth to their Country without fear of doing something illegal is going in the right direction (as long as they do not take
jobs needed by our own citizens). However, I still feel if they wave the hand over those here illegally and give them citizenship it is wrong,
however if they do then all of the ones with their paperwork in now should also automatically become citizens. I suspect fairness should be in our
system somewhere still, right?
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DENNIS
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Fairness should be in our system, for sure and, it would be wrong to say that our tacit approval of everything that has transpired to this point,
hasn't been fair. Maybe "fair" isn't the word I'm looking for. Maybe "irresponsible" describes it better.
What has turned me off to the issue of amnesty in any form is my reaction to the DEMANDS for amnesty. Like, they're entitled to it. Our fairness,
our irresponsibility to our own integrety, has given us what we have today.
A scenario which would quiet the demands for citizenship would be to bring back the draft, for ALL citizens. Then perhaps, the responsibilities
which come with citizenship would be fully understood and the demands would turn to a whimper.
On the other hand, I can wish for a cessation of hostilities and minimize the military. Bring home all of our troops and turn them loose on the
streets to find employment. But, they better be able to speak Spanish and work for peanuts or they won't be hired.
What a freakin mess.
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Packoderm
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Pompano, you are certainly correct. That's probably the biggest reason why so many Americans have gone belly up on so many issues that affect them.
The Americans most affected by illegal immigration seem to be the ones least mentioned in the debate. I guess you're right - screw it. It's getting
hard to care any more.
Skeet, thank you; but I got lucky and got a summer job that is there for me every year. However, it is no longer really viable for a man to come up
through the ranks and support a family in the construction industry except for the few who are able to become superintendents or business owners.
Anybody who is ok with this really has no right to complain that the American man is no longer manly and has no right to complain about the
increasingly confused American family dynamic. In short, we're all becoming a bunch of white collar wimps. That's ok, but we're going to need to
accept ourselves for what we become.
And Jesse, just think how the new American population will think about all these non-productive old White people sitting about. These old people have
better have gotten their games straight because support will not be there if needed. It will be like, "Why should my taxes go to take care of all
these old White people?" Perhaps it would be better to not so much complain about providing services to the less prosperous today but instead make
sure that it is documented and widely understood that we are doing so. Some of us just might end up needing the return of the favor if say our medical
insurers screw us over, and we lose everything in medical bills.
Wait a minute; I think I'm responding to Jesse's comment. Doesn't that make this part of a discussion rather than one of a series of monologues? In
reality, it has become fashionable for many to eschew politics in order to better handle how powerless they feel.
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MrBillM
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Affirmation
Surprisingly, this a.m. Senator Arlen Spector (R-PA) speaking on Fox News Sunday confirmed the Real purpose of the current
legislation when he said (as I had noted previously), "It is important that we get this legislation out of the way prior to the 2008 election cycle".
It is noteworthy that OUR (?) representatives are so eager to rush through poorly-constructed legislation that will cause a crushing
economic and social affect on our country in the future simply to improve their chances of remaining in office.
It is also worth noting, as a commentator said on a later news show, that "we only Think we know what is in this bill. It is turning
out to be an amazingly complicated bill. Every day we are finding out more that we didn't know was in there". That's the reason the Swim King wanted
to speed it through.
Fortunately, there are those on the Left who are just as dissatisfied with this legislation as there are those on the Right. Hopefully, those numbers
will remain strong enough to clean this mess up. Nothing is sure, however, because the leadership and the President have a lot of Pork in the Barrel
to distribute in exchange for votes.
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Al G
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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PORK???
Yes...60 billion taken from a group that can not afford it...no better then the criminals that charged them $5000 to get them across the border...the
reason I am against Amnesty.
Do not paint me in Lee's box, because this is not about racism...such a sad reason to be on any side of an issue.
Jesse, can not validate your numbers, but your are right.
MrBillM...you are right...cannot wait to see all the crap in this bill.
[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Al G]
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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JESSE
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The Question here is, would American voters accept the fact that the US needs millions and millions of immigrants? and would they vote for candidates
who support this reality or candidates who will for sure, use it as a political weapon to reach their personal goals?
My guess is that Washington understands they need the labor, but they also know the american voter places more attention to emotion than to facts
(like everywhere), so they know that this would never work in a legal, organized way. So what do you? you simply open the gates and look the other
way, thats exactly whats happening.
By the way, i think its wrong for immigration activists to be demanding anything, i wouldnt want a few million Guatemalans demanding anything here, so
i understand how many feel.
[Edited on 5-27-2007 by JESSE]
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Mexitron
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Jesse--you've got it right there.
One more idea in the background though, which could explain why Bush et al is basically supporting immigration is the possible formation of a North
American trade alliance(Mex, US, Canada), similar to the ETO, in order to compete better with the ETO and others. This is hush hush stuff, and as far
as I know can only be qualified as rumor as yet. But if true, explains why the lenient policy towards Mexico; that is, our interdependency and
population osmosis will only grow in the future. One project in the planning stages--the central US truck corrider going from Mex to Canada--would
seem to support that idea.
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oldhippie
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I have liberal feeling about this topic, but screw what my feelings are. Here's a fact.
If the US is to achieve more legal immigration it must simplify and make logical the process. I helped my wife get her permanent US residency and it
was a long complicated process that I could not have done without the help of a rather expensive lawyer who completed the myriad of forms flawlessly
and provided expert advise. In fact at the final interview the American offical was going to deny her residency because he thought she had been
previously entered the US illegally. Good thing my lawyer was present because he informed the immigration turkey that he was wrong and in fact her
entries on her K-3 visa were entirely legal. At the end of the interview the offical admitted his mistake and congratulated me for having a very
informed lawyer.
I think a big reason there are so many illegal immigrants is because the legal process is too complicated and expensive for the average blue collar
Mexican worker. The process needs to be fixed, it obviously doesn't work.
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Cypress
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My warped mind is in a state of confusion.  There are hordes of fully capable,
natural born US citizens, that turn their collective nostrils up at anything that resembles "Work". They manage to eat well, put gas in their cars,
and have a roof over their heads. Is there something wrong with this picture?
Wish we could swap all these lazy parasites on a 1 to 1 basis for anybody from anywhere that is willing to earn their bread and butter.
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bajalou
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2 for 1 would be a better trade.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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oldhippie
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A second thought about the immigration process. Not only is it too complicated for the average Mexican blue collar worker, in addition, as the
immigration official demonstrated, it is too complicated for the average US immigration offical to comprehend.
I imagine most of you don't have any first hand experience with the US immigration process. I do. Believe me, it is next to impossible to do right.
The best way to get people to follow the rules is to make the rules easy to follow.
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Paula
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
The Question here is, would American voters accept the fact that the US needs millions and millions of immigrants? and would they vote for candidates
who support this reality or candidates who will for sure, use it as a political weapon to reach their personal goals?
My guess is that Washington understands they need the labor, but they also know the american voter places more attention to emotion than to facts
(like everywhere), so they know that this would never work in a legal, organized way. So what do you? you simply open the gates and look the other
way, thats exactly whats happening.
By the way, i think its wrong for immigration activists to be demanding anything, i wouldnt want a few million Guatemalans demanding anything here, so
i understand how many feel.
[Edited on 5-27-2007 by JESSE] |
I think you see this sad situation very clearly Jesse.
Simply opening the gates and looking the other way might be a good solution, except that fearful emotion gets in the way. Our government makes a
token attempt to appear to be halting the flow. People from the south who are trying to provide for their families are forced into dangerous
situations trying to cross, and good people lose their lives. Vigilante groups spring up on the border, adding to the danger and the polarizing
rhetoric.Those who have made it across and work and live here feel entitled to make demands. After all, they have integrated into society, and are a
part of this country, and they have risked much to get where they are. At the same time, many American workers are feeling squeezed out, and have
every right and reason to be concerned.
It's a sensitive, personal issue, and the solutions-- if they can be found will only come about through respectful dialogue. We have to have trust,
good will, and a sincere concern for a good outcome for all sides. I see open borders as a good start. It's a smaller world than it once was, and we
have to learn to share it. And our leaders in congress and the white house need to be more concerned about a good outcome than their own political
careers.
[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Paula]
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DENNIS
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Oh yeah .... Good idea. When they're done, they can tear down the fences around Disneyland, in the effort toward a better world.
If our worlds were the same, or at least similiar, no borders would work. Today, they serve a purpose.
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