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Bajabus
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Location: Elias Calles B.C.S. or NC USA
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here is a good thread we had on this very subject back in 2002. it's a good read of an exchange mostly between me and Dave with a few others chiming
in.
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=172&page=...
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked of such a thing."
Dwight David Eisenhower
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amir
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
How many of you Posters have ever had the experience of being placed in a Bamboo Cage, then poked at with sharpened Stocks, had Fecas thrown all over
you, Urinated on by another Human{?}. |
Did that happen to you, Skeet?
If yes, then now I understand your tormented mind.
May PEACE be with you now.
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Bruno:
Is it my responsibility to pay for "Prevention and Treatment" for those who cannot "Control their Desires and keep their Passions within due Bounds"?
Skeet/Loreto |
Yes!
For all the reasons that have been so eloquently expressed in this string.
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Skeet/Loreto
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No, I do not have a Tormented Mind;
As a Criminaogist, with a degree in 1958, I was taught that we should all produce for ourselves and another 1 and a Half for those in need.
I also did time{Study at the following Places:
San Quintin
Soladad
Chino
Carson City
Folsom
Huntsville
During those studies I figured out that there are some Human beings that do not have the ability to control their Destiny, that some{ about 20% do
have that Ability,
Bruno for you to say that Jails are a Failure, leaves me to wonder: How do we keep those Criminals and especially the Drugged ones from Killing more
of the law abiding Citizens???.
Would it not be better to teach the Children of today to Fight instead of Run and Hide.
Bruno I had the occasion to have my Weapon c-cked and ready to shoot a Drugged/Drunk standing with a c-cked Shotgun, He finally lowered his weapon and
was sent off to Jail, released, got Drunk/Drugged and killed a Family of 5.
The Jail did not do the Job unless they had kept him for Life.
I could have saved 5 Lives. and Money!
Money is not the Answer, it is Faith and Hope and Effort,.
Skeet/Loreto
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Bajabus
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Location: Elias Calles B.C.S. or NC USA
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Of the 1,846,351 people incarcerated in 2005 for drug violations, 37.7% of those were arrested for marijuana possession alone. That's 696,075 people.
The subsidized cost of a college education at Harvard is about $45,000
the cost to incarcerate an individual is approx $60,000.
So we spend about $41,764,459,620.00 per year to put in jail folks arrested for mere possession of marijuana.
This does not make sense to me.
Jail is not the answer.
[Edited on 9-9-2007 by Bajabus]
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked of such a thing."
Dwight David Eisenhower
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Phil S
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How many of you that advocate legalizing marijuana, have had a son or daughter enter the drug scene & disappear from life to resurface as a "lost
soal"? If you haven't had a 'loved one' taken away from you this way, then I would hope and pray that it 'never happen to you'!!!!!!! Their life is
'screwed' and your life is altered for the rest of your life. And I can speak first hand about that. How about you???????? Legalize drugs???? I
don't think sooooooooooo. No I don't have an answer, and that is what has made my life so miserable for me and my wife. Learning to accept that
which is not in your control, and move on with YOUR life has been one of the hardest experiences I've ever encountered. I'm not totally there yet,
and don't know if I ever will be. Maybe global warming will eventually destroy the plants & that will end our problem!!! (t.i.c.)
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bajalou
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I have much of the experiences you speak of Phil S, but alcohol caused more destruction in their and my lives than all the other drugs they abused.
And my belief is that legalizing and taxing would do more to reduce the devastation to this country than all the dollars wasted on prohibition and
attempts to control.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Bajabus
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Location: Elias Calles B.C.S. or NC USA
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Mood: My friends..it's good.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Phil S
How many of you that advocate legalizing marijuana, have had a son or daughter enter the drug scene & disappear from life to resurface as a "lost
soal"? If you haven't had a 'loved one' taken away from you this way, then I would hope and pray that it 'never happen to you'!!!!!!! Their life is
'screwed' and your life is altered for the rest of your life. And I can speak first hand about that. How about you???????? Legalize drugs???? I
don't think sooooooooooo. No I don't have an answer, and that is what has made my life so miserable for me and my wife. Learning to accept that
which is not in your control, and move on with YOUR life has been one of the hardest experiences I've ever encountered. I'm not totally there yet,
and don't know if I ever will be. Maybe global warming will eventually destroy the plants & that will end our problem!!! (t.i.c.)
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Phil that is a truly heart wrenching tragedy and my sympathy goes out to you and your family.
As part of your sons experience did he ever spend time in Jail?
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked of such a thing."
Dwight David Eisenhower
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bajalou
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I would hope you take any details - jail, accidents, death - off of the forum - do it 1 on 1 if you want but don't post it here.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Phil S
How many of you that advocate legalizing marijuana, have had a son or daughter enter the drug scene & disappear from life to resurface as a "lost
soal"? If you haven't had a 'loved one' taken away from you this way, then I would hope and pray that it 'never happen to you'!!!!!!! Their life is
'screwed' and your life is altered for the rest of your life. And I can speak first hand about that. How about you???????? Legalize drugs???? I
don't think sooooooooooo. No I don't have an answer, and that is what has made my life so miserable for me and my wife. Learning to accept that
which is not in your control, and move on with YOUR life has been one of the hardest experiences I've ever encountered. I'm not totally there yet,
and don't know if I ever will be. Maybe global warming will eventually destroy the plants & that will end our problem!!! (t.i.c.)
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Phil,
The destruction of a loved one's life by drug addiction is a tragedy. I'm sorry that this string has conjured up a truly sad emotion.
What we are talking about here is Marijuana. The myth that Marijuana is a stepping stone to hard drug addiction is like the mythical premise Bush used
to invade Iraq: "Saddam possesses weapons of mass destruction," changed to: "because they attacked us on 9/11," changed to: "we have to fight the
enemy there so they don't follow us here. "
Now I don't know what your politics are and you don't have to reveal your personal idiology or defend it, because your grief is what drives your
opinion. You are entitled to that.
My point is, that politics is the usual driver of such mythical opinions. If one subscribes to the right wing myths about the reasons why we are in
Iraq, the same mind set follows with the myths about Marijuana; the need to make it illegal and the need to include it in the "War on Drugs". The
consequence is that it squanders precious resources and lives by shooting or incarceration.
If one can examine and separate out myth from reality, they can still hold onto their idiology and yet not buy into the total rhetorical package.
One's idiology is formed by personal experience, from childhood well into adulthood. The hard work is examining where you stand on each issue by using
introspection, calling on your experience and then applying your brains, heart and soul. If you do that, your vision for what you want for this world,
and yourself, is just that: Yours!...that is your truth and your right or wrong.
Everyone please notice that this whole string has been a pretty civil debate. I hope my posts have contributed in this spirit. Naturally I would wish
to change some minds. Everybody would like to sway another's opinions. But I certainly don't require agreement.. What I do hope to
promote is understanding of one's opinions and how they arrived at those opinions. 
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Bajabus
Senior Nomad
Posts: 892
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Location: Elias Calles B.C.S. or NC USA
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bajalou, you are right. Forget that question....it's not appropriate and I apologize for asking.
I guess the point I am trying to get around to is that if it were my son I would prefer that the 41 billion dollars used yearly to incarcerate non
violent marijuana possession offenders were shifted to education, prevention and rehabilitation and that the drug be legalized.
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked of such a thing."
Dwight David Eisenhower
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Cypress
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Location: on the bayou
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Jeez! Everybody has their drug of choice. Some people get off on this and some people get off on that, some of it's legal, some of it's not, it might not be
organic, solid, liquid, or anything on the list. We're all addicted to
something.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Here Goes:
What is it about Smoking Dope?
What does it do for you as compared to getting a High from say, jumping out of an Airplane at 10,000 Ft.
Or getting a High from watching a Beautiful Sunrise, or solveing a difficult problem???
Why does a Person "Need a High"' Are they missing something in their Brain or Heart, are they escaping the Pain of Life?, Scared, trying to Copy
another person? Could it be a "Weakness Gene"?
Skeet
For those who are blaming
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backninedan
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Location: Loreto
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Skeet do you drink at all? beer, and occasional mixed drink? If so, how can you justify your last post? If not, I withdraw my question.
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BajaBruno
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Posts: 1035
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Location: Back in CA
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I’m glad you’re here Skeet—I needed something to keep me occupied today.
Academic criminologists and sociologists rely heavily on the Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, produced by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
This post will be heavy on statistics, but it’s my curse, so jump to the fishing report if you’re not up to it today!
I don’t recall saying that jails were a failure per se, but they certainly don’t seem to have done much to solve the perceived drug problem. But,
let’s look first to see if there really is a definable illicit drug problem versus a lawful alcohol problem, personal tragedies aside (and I only
sideline them temporarily).
The Percent of jail inmates reporting alcohol use at the time of their offense declined from 41% in 1996 to 35% in 2002, a decline of about 15% during
that time. The decline among violent offenders was less pronounced at only 7%.
Jail inmates reporting any drug use at the time of offense declined during the same period from 35% to 29%, or a change of 17%. The largest drop was
in the marijuana/cocaine/crack categories. There is no subcategory for violent offenders.
These two stats can overlap, of course, as some offenders may have used both alcohol and drugs, and the drug stats do not weed out those who were
arrested simply for being under the influence or in possession of drugs, which could slant the figures dramatically.
However, I think we can say that there is a nexus between intoxicants and crime, though it is stronger with alcohol use than drug use. So, how are we
dealing with the problem? Well, we aren’t treating many of them while they are young and prior to arrest.
In 1998 there were 100,000 kids in drug treatment facilities. That number has steadily declined to 88,000 in 2005, a 13% decline.
But, we are putting a lot of them in jail.
In 2002, the highest crime of 12% of all jail inmates was simple possession of non-trafficking quantities of drugs. Another 9% were in for
trafficking quantities of drugs. The totals are the same as for all violent offenders combined. 25% vs 25%.
Ok, we have them in jail, what are we doing with them in there? Using the anecdotal episode Skeet described, I don’t think we have to all be
psychiatrists to figure out that that guy needed mental health intervention. Drugs alone don’t cause someone to kill five people, or our country
would be empty right now. We have already seen that violent offenders and non-violent drug offenders account for 50% of the incarcerated population.
So, how many are receiving mental health therapy or counseling?
Nationwide, only 14%, combining 24-hour care and therapy & counseling as of year 2000, and the numbers vary widely from a high of 38% in Wyoming
to a low of 6% in South Carolina.
So, the prisons are bulging at the seams (from 96 per 100k US population in 1973, to 491 per 100k US population in 2005), and we aren’t treating those
who need help, inside or outside the prison walls, do the citizens feel safer now? Ahhh, not really.
In 1972, 51% of Citizens said they felt there was more crime in their own area than the year before. In 2006? Yep, also 51% said the same thing. Do
citizens thinkt he drug war has been successful? In 1972 61% said they thought efforts against drugs had stood still or lost ground. In 2005, 66%
though the same thing.
What about the money issue? Citizens were asked if we are spending enough to fight drug addiction (not incarceration, necessarily). In 1985, 62%
thought we were not spending enough; in 2002 it was 57%. Is more enforcement the answer? Not according to the citizens. In 1989, 61% chose “attack
social problems” over “more enforcement” as a solution to crime; in 2006, the level was 65% in favor of social programs.
Ok, we’ve spent all this money on jailing drug offenders and publicizing how bad it’s going to be for you if you get caught, what effect has this had
on the availability of drugs? In 2003, 87% of high school seniors said it was “fairly easy” or “very easy” to obtain marijuana. 57% said the same
about Ecstasy, and 55% about amphetamines. 45% of 8th graders said marijuana was easy to get, and 67% reported that alcohol was easy to get. Has the
ballooning incarceration rate made kids fear drugs? Not exactly—actually, the opposite is true.
In the most impressionable group, high school seniors, the one that education should be targeting, attitudes toward drugs have relaxed considerably.
In 1990, 68% of seniors disapproved of evening trying marijuana one or twice. By 2003, the rate was down to 53%. In 1990, 91% of seniors disapproved
of smoking marijuana regularly, while in 2003 the rate was only 79%.
I could go on, but I imagine few have even gotten this far. I know it has been dense and wordy. I think it was Mark Twain who said there are “lies,
damn lies, and statistics,” but these, I think speak for themselves. I’ll let the others judge them.
[Edited on 9-10-2007 by BajaBruno]
Christopher Bruno, Elk Grove, CA.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
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Dan.
After a hard days work, on Occasion i shall have a "Two-Eyed Tequilla" or on Occasion I will have a "Texas Sux-Beer" brewed in Oklahoma!!
I enjoy the Taste
The other night a Doe gave birth to Twin Fawns outside of my Bedroom Window I got a High watching the giving of Life!
A few minutes past an Osprey was sailing over head. I got a High watching!
The other day I was at the Boys Ranch Rodeo watching 3 year old kids riding Muttons{Called Mutton Busting}.
I remember catching a 50Lb. Dorado at Carmen Island. What a High!
I remember the Good Sex I had last Night.
I remember the smile of the Pretty Lady, when I held the Door for her to enter a building.
Life is Great. Beauty is in the Eyes of the Holder-Not a Bottle or Smoke!
Comon Folks Live!!!
Skeet
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CaboRon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
You got it right Gnome-ad! |
Pot does not lead you to hard drugs.
Because it is illigal it leads you to the man.
And the man will introduce you to hard drugs.
Illegal also means it has a certain illicet charm,
Which is very enticing to young people.
Remember rebellion?
Pot is not a hard drug.
It is a benificial herb given to us by mother earth.
It does not have to be distilled or manufactured like
Alcohol or Meth.
It is not man made,
But God Given.
Om, Mani Padma, Hum
The Dewdrop Slips Into The Shining Sea.
- CaboRon
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Cypress
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BajaBruno Skeet. Facts usually trump feelings. Not gonna argue with
facts, but feelings? What feels good to one might not feel good to another.
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CaboRon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
BajaBruno Skeet. Facts usually trump feelings. Not gonna argue with
facts, but feelings? What feels good to one might not feel good to another.
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that's why youhave free will
do whatever you llike
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Dave
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The Darwin patrol
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajabus
if it were my son I would prefer that the 41 billion dollars used yearly to incarcerate non violent marijuana possession offenders were shifted to
education, prevention and rehabilitation and that the drug be legalized. |
Since people choose to use, why not make them pay the freight? And why would we need to spend 41 billion on education and prevention
or rehab if we legalized? 
This debate is absurd. Only idiots get arrested for marijuana possession. You really have to be dumber than dirt. IMO, the police are doing society a
favor.
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