| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6 |
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
There are some things Henderson said that either don't make sense or they are incorrect for the location. Use Google Earth and follow the arroyos
westward and note the elevation. The ones that drain westward to A. Grande are to the north. The ones he speaks of drain to the east.
|
Hi TW, I have identified 5 possible arroyos that flow westward (northwest in some cases) into Arroyo Grande, from the east.
There are clues in the letter Henderson sent Choral Pepper that Choral did not write in her magazine or book chapters. It is pretty exciting for me to
have the original letter, and I hope to get in there for a look along with my Nomad amigos... Could be fun, like we had in April, 2011 looking for the
Lost Mission of Santa Isabel (in Arroyo el Volcan)!
Because of the effort that Bruce Barber and Tad Robinette (DesertGhost on Nomad) put into the search for the 'Pile of Rocks' (Henderson never claimed
it is Melchior Diaz's grave), I have given a copy of the letter and directions to them both, out of respect for their efforts, and a couple other
Nomads as well... should I disappear from this planet! I only ask that if any of you find the 'Pile of Rocks' found by Walter Henderson, to please
take photos and share them here.
|
|
|
John M
Super Nomad
Posts: 1921
Registered: 9-3-2003
Location: California High Desert
Member Is Offline
|
|
Melchoir Diaz still missing!
The Baja Nomad forums do nothing if they don’t spur dissent and discussion and opposing views.
Non-provable topics are best suited for this sort of thing. The gravesite of Melchoir Diaz is perfect. This isn’t meant to challenge the current
thoughts and Nomad thread on the Diaz grave but to offer the fact that other opinions exist.
While David and many others before him (Randall Henderson & Choral Pepper included) firmly believe the Diaz grave is in Baja, there are others who
think otherwise. This is the beauty of unsubstantiated but thoughtful research – differing opinions based on a scarcity of facts.
I have previously shared these thoughts with Mr. David K.
A pretty well-renowned researcher, Jack D. Forbes, wrote an article, published in 1958, titled Melchoir Diaz and the Discovery of Alta
California. At the time Forbes was a candidate for the doctorate in history in the University of Southern California. His lengthy article while
not about proving or disproving the location of the Diaz grave makes this point:
"After locating Alarcon's message, Diaz proceeded, as the facts indicate, to journey up the Colorado River to a point perhaps fifty leagues or five to
six days north of Yuma. Thus he would have been at least as far as Blythe, California, and perhaps to Parker, Arizona. At any rate, he then seems to
have crossed the river, being the first Spaniard to do so. Thus it seems clear that Melchior Diaz was the first European to set foot on the soil of
what is now the state of California."
Forbes puts his death near what is today Niland, California.
As compared with other writings by those wishing to sway opinion on the matter, Forbes’s work has many sources footnoted for the inquisitive
researcher; Choral Pepper, Randall Henderson, and Ronald L. Ives do not, though they do cite a few sources such as Castaneda.
John M
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
I am not sure where he was buried, only that Walter Henderson found an unusual pile of rocks that fit the description of Diaz's grave, back in the
1930's. It was after his discovery that he read of Diaz' death and realized what he may have discovered while trying to hike to some blue palm trees!
I am interested in re-finding that pile of rocks to see where Walter Henderson was. The same way I wanted to find the walls that Choral Pepper wrote
about in 1966, that she later believed could be a proposed mission of 'Santa Maria Magdalena'... http://vivabaja.com/109
All great fun things to do in Baja California!
|
|
|
TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
|
|
DK do you want to share the 5 arroyos you found?
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
DK do you want to share the 5 arroyos you found? |
I will send you what I have Tom...
|
|
|
Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy!
|
|
Sounds like a interesting trip---could you send the names of the canyons to me too? I might have poked around in a couple of them before
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
Hi Steve,
No canyon or arroyo names on the Almanac topo, at least the ones I think contain the rockpile.
If we find it, then let's call it Arroyo de Diaz, yes?
|
|
|
elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hey DK, send me what you have. I'll do some overlays like the good ol' days 
|
|
|
elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
|
|
And just to set the record straight, if setting foot on the west side of the Colorado river is the measure we're going by the Alarcon himself did so
before Diaz. He visited with many natives on both sides of the river. Of course, he didn't travel away from the river's shoreline very far, but I'm
pretty sure that his were the first boots on the ground west of the Colorado.
http://www.escholarship.org/uc/item/86x647bs
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
It is all pretty interesting...
Hey elbeau, you were pretty good with Google Earth on zooming in on the odd shaped rocks along Arroyo el Volcan (2011)... I wonder if you could find
the 'rockpile', from space?
Edit: Thanks for this link! http://www.escholarship.org/uc/item/86x647bs
I will read it later... Is there a similar one for Melchior Diaz from that site?
[Edited on 6-15-2013 by David K]
|
|
|
elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
|
|
Yes, I'm the master of expending great effort doing research the ultimately ends with finding a bunch of rocks in the middle of nowhere. This is one
job that's right up my alley!
[Edited on 6-15-2013 by elbeau]
|
|
|
elbeau
Nomad
Posts: 256
Registered: 3-2-2011
Location: Austin, TX
Member Is Offline
|
|
I have completed my analysis of the mystery grave and have found evidence that it was already looted by an overenthusiastic boy scout.
...is it just me, or does that look a lot like DK?
[Edited on 6-15-2013 by elbeau]
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
This belongs IN A MUSEUM!!!! 
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
Okay, we are nearing the Winter of 2013/2014 so once again, I am popping up this thread... and hope that some blessings make an expedition possible...
If anyone reading this does find the Pile of Rocks before I do, I ask only to see photos of it. To see something that was found 80 years ago and know
where Walter Henderson hiked from his Model A would be great.
In Henderson's 1967 letter to Choral Pepper, he describes the rock formation in Arroyo Grande that would indicate which of the side arroyos the 'Rock
Pile' was in. In Choral's Desert Magazine articles and Baja books, she altered (on accident perhaps) and left out a few details that Henderson
provided. This totally through off Bruce Barber in his intense search for the site in the 1990's... from La Ventana.
Indeed if the Pile of Rocks is the 1541 grave of one of Coronado's captains, it would be remarkable!
|
|
|
vacaenbaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 640
Registered: 4-4-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Baja ROCKS!!
|
|
|
PaulW
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3075
Registered: 5-21-2013
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
Sounds like a interesting trip---could you send the names of the canyons to me too? I might have poked around in a couple of them before
|
=======
Names?
The only ones I can find on INEGI H11B26:
S of "C Polmo" and "C Viernes Santo"
"Canada Juves Santo"
Which further SE becomes "Canada Las Tinajas"
Lots of mine sites are also noted.
Paul
|
|
|
PaulW
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3075
Registered: 5-21-2013
Member Is Offline
|
|
David K,
Send me what you have for the 5 washes and I will try to define which ones I have driven. Your guidance will help for that area. And I am still
looking for The B Barber Ventana in the 2nd wash S of the Ventana road??? He says the one I found is not the correct one??
I will go back soon and report.
Paul
==========
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
There are some things Henderson said that either don't make sense or they are incorrect for the location. Use Google Earth and follow the arroyos
westward and note the elevation. The ones that drain westward to A. Grande are to the north. The ones he speaks of drain to the east.
|
Hi TW, I have identified 5 possible arroyos that flow westward (northwest in some cases) into Arroyo Grande, from the east.
There are clues in the letter Henderson sent Choral Pepper that Choral did not write in her magazine or book chapters. It is pretty exciting for me to
have the original letter, and I hope to get in there for a look along with my Nomad amigos... Could be fun, like we had in April, 2011 looking for the
Lost Mission of Santa Isabel (in Arroyo el Volcan)!
Because of the effort that Bruce Barber and Tad Robinette (DesertGhost on Nomad) put into the search for the 'Pile of Rocks' (Henderson never claimed
it is Melchior Diaz's grave), I have given a copy of the letter and directions to them both, out of respect for their efforts, and a couple other
Nomads as well... should I disappear from this planet! I only ask that if any of you find the 'Pile of Rocks' found by Walter Henderson, to please
take photos and share them here. |
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
Winter 2014/2015 is in its third month... the years slip by pretty fast, and we aren't getting any younger.
Choral Pepper left me with two mysteries. One I found after extensive searching a a Nomad's sharp eye using Google Earth, south of Bahia de los
Angeles. The other is finding Henderson's 'Rock Pile' that he would later attribute to the lost grave of Melchor Diaz, the first Spaniard to walk into
California.
|
|
|
PaulW
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3075
Registered: 5-21-2013
Member Is Offline
|
|
5 arroyos
DK wrote
I have identified 5 possible arroyos that flow westward northwest in some cases into Arroyo Grande from the east.
..
Arroyos from the Ventana road going south are as follows
1 31 41.526 115 10.665 Faint gully and not explored.
2 31 41.212 115 11.087 Partly explored and is where Bruce Barber sent me to find his Ventana. I probably found it but time was late and I did not
proceed further up the arroyo. Should be easy travel. I think this is the arroyo he and his buddy were when they stumbled on a rock pile.
However his detailed driving instructions were full of inaccuracies. He said take the first easy arroyo east which seemed accurate.
3 31 40.614 115 11.141 Not explored but looks doable from the map.
4 31 39.429 115 11.868 This is the west side mine haul road. It leads into a huge arroyo and valley with many small mines on both shoulders of the
thing. Good luck because mine security will chase you out.
Paul
|
|
|
TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
|
|
I think we have been looking at the wrong Arroyo Grande. In the Lower California Guidebook by Gerhard and Gulick map 3 there are two Arroyo Grandes
shown. The one we know of that runs by the wells for the mine and the other is shown running east and west just above Cerro Borrego and I think the
latter one is what Henderson walked into. I know that on the map the latter one was probably ment by the book authors as the ranch but I think
Henderson was referring to it in his statement especially when he talks about how they drove up to the hillside and reaching the base of C. Borrego.
Something to ponder at least. Last year when Phil and I went down Arrroyo Grande we only saw one place, as I recall, that came anywhere near
Hendersons description of huge verticle walls.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
