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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
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Don, you just thought you were in a second-hand store! You were obviously in an antique store!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64743
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by sd
David K -
No bum deal in Baja, I enjoy every trip.
I am extremely generous and know how important my $$ are to the business owner when I stop for a meal or lodging.
I do want to be treated fairly, and dual pricing is difficult for me. I do feel for the locals trying to get by on moderate income. I honestly am
concerned and interested in how they make it. I have been told of government subsidies when purchasing a panga for example, but do not know if
programs such as this exist. I would like to know more.
You have traveled to many remote spots that appeal to me. In your opinion, will more tourism improve these areas or make the basics too expensive for
the residents?
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Perhaps they make it BECAUSE they charge more to tourists? If you really like your Baja experience, then don't let the price thing bug you...
As for your question about the remote areas I go to... there are NO residents... The 'basics' is what I bring in my truck, as I am camping. The towns
I have stayed in or near, when I am not so remote, are already tourist oriented (Bahia de L.A., San Felipe, El Rosario) as I think most of Baja is.
Again, just try and enjoy your Baja trips... dual pricing is a fact of life... use only pesos and ask for the Spanish menu for the 'local' prices.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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Gull have never gone back, never will..
Osprey, when in Mexico, I use only pesos........
Don, looked at an old bedframe in Yucatan, beat up from the hurricane...needed a temporay for a beach shack....
How much says I, "Senior, dos mil pesos, says the bandito"......Is that with two putas says I, and adios!
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
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What's this??? The old "Do as I say, rather than do as I do" approach? | Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I pay in dollars (always accepted) just so I give an extra 10% or so when I buy products or sevices... on purpose. |
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
use only pesos and ask for the Spanish menu for the 'local' prices. |
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Oso
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2637
Registered: 8-29-2003
Location: on da border
Member Is Offline
Mood: wait and see
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Why would a merchant charge a tourist more than a local? For the same reason a dog licks his privates. Because he can. When I was 17, riding
freight trains across the Northwest, I worked for a time in the canneries in Spokane. One night a local cop was checking me out. I wasn't doing
anything illegal and he wasn't being rude about it, just doing his job. We actually got into a fairly friendly conversation and in the course of it I
learned a local "secret". It seems that all the local merchants raised their prices on almost everything during the harvest season when the migrants
were in town. The locals who were known to the merchants did not pay cash at the register. They signed chits. After the season, when the migrants
were gone, they settled up at "regular" prices. This wasn't soaking the rich. This was blatently taking advantage of the most disadvantaged just
because they "weren't from around here" and the merchants could get away with it.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64743
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Hmmm... well, I am not surprised if we gringos get quoted a higher price... as we don't use the services in Mexico on a frequent basis.
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WE don't? Spoken as a true occasional tourist!! David, you might want to keep in mind that there are people who live here
full time & are on limited income and who can't afford paying "gringo" prices! Your "I pay in dollars (always accepted) just so I give an
extra 10% or so when I buy products or sevices... on purpose." is pure arrogance & BS...most towns do give change close to the current
exchange rate & PEMEX has a standard fixed 10%. If, on the other hand your bill for groceries or services is $1,000 pesos & you toss down a
$100 USD bill & tell them to "keep the change", then IMO, it's "big-spenders" like you who perpetuate the myth that all gringos are rich &
fuel the separate local vs gringo prices! I hope when you retire you have a fixed monthly retirement income of $1,000; then you just might gain some
understanding of fair & equal prices for everyone, regardless of nationality.
I do shop around, especially for construction materials. Because I was willing to order & pay up front for cement & rebar for my entire casa,
I got better pricing than my first architect did! Same on bids, I get several & each supplier knows they're in a competitive situation. When I
talk with a supplier I haven't dealt with before, I tell them I'm a full-time resident, not a tourist or part-timer, and it does make a difference in
the price. They're in business to make a profit & I know they won't be taking a loss by lowering prices to a win/win level.
I know some La Paz hotels do offer discounted pricing if a resident makes the reservation for friends or family, but that's not a situation I've ever
been in a position to use.
I agree with Judy, the full-timers are the steady customer base year round; but then I rarely eat in a resort setting...more commonly local places
where the prices are posted for all to see.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I am a tourist on vacation, and can afford it. |
Well bully for you!! We aren't all you, try walking a mile in someone else's shoes for a change!
I treat the people I live amongst & do business with fairly & with respect & I expect the same in return. And....yes! I do tip based on
good service.
And don't call people whiners just because they might be in a different financial situation than you are! |
Good morning to you to, Long Legs...
I was talking about MY situation and used 'gringo' to mean tourists on vacation... my bad.
However, when you moved to Mexico to try and live like a local on what they spend... maybe a non-tourist area would have been better than La Paz? As
long as you look like a gringo (tourist, foreignor, etc.), you will be treated as such by those who don't know you.
Dollars ARE the second currency in Baja... at least in the northern state... I see locals using dollars all the time in markets to buy food, etc. If I
ever got a hint that it was disrespectful to use dollars instead of being benefitial to them, I would use only pesos. A friend of mine owns a Pemex
station and a motel in Baja... so I do have input from a local about this stuff.
The exchange rate for dollars to pesos is posted by the business owner... and it is to his advantage to take dollars to the bank which have been more
stable than the peso in past years. The longer he waited to go to the bank, the more money he had, with dollars.
I get the impression from 'many' who use pesos in Mexico that is purely to get the best deal... pay the lowest possible price... not leave anything
extra.
So, please don't think I am being arrogant by using dollars... I am trying to give just a little more for the good time I have in Baja, that's all.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64743
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
What's this??? The old "Do as I say, rather than do as I do" approach? | Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I pay in dollars (always accepted) just so I give an extra 10% or so when I buy products or sevices... on purpose. |
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
use only pesos and ask for the Spanish menu for the 'local' prices. |
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No, take a deep breath... I was telling sd how she/he may get away with paying the same as a local... NOT what I do.
Please try and include my entire post when quoting me... Thank you.
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
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What specifically do you feel was taken out of context or distorted in how I chose to do the quotes? I don't feel it was distorted at all since I
only quoted the points I was commenting on. Not meant to distort at all, just to save everyone from having to read through the entire post a second
time & save server space!!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64743
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Well, this is what you posted: Quote:
Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
What's this??? The old "Do as I say, rather than do as I do" approach?
It WASN'T what I do...
(sd didn't like paying a higher 'tourist' price... I don't mind since I am a tourist... I was responding to sd)
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
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David, if you don't see any "Do as I say, not as I do" logic in telling everyone that you only pay in USD & overpay intentionally...but they
should only pay in pesos to avoid "gringo pricing", then far be it for me to second guess you!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64743
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I wasn't telling everyone what they should do... Everyone should do what they want!
The advice was for sd only... not everybody... as she/he complained about the prices, yet he/she seems to be a tourist on vacation, from other posts.
So, in no way was I trying to preach to you U.S. people who live in Mexico now... no way, I am not qualified as I don't live there.
What I post is about my experiences in Baja, which span 43 years...
Now, let it go... have a nice day... you are in La Paz, afterall! PEACE!
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wsdunc
Nomad
Posts: 179
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: So Cal
Member Is Offline
Mood: Upbeat
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This is definitely a world wide phenomena, when I travel in Bolivia with my wife I have to walk behind her and her family when doing any shopping, if
I am even seen SHE will get the gringo price. We laugh about it. This being said we regularly get the gringo price anyway. What do we do? If its
outrageous we walk away. If it's a slight increase and we think whatever we're buying is worth it we buy it. I have found that if we frequent an
establishment (restaurant, market etc) once we become known as kind of a regular the prices are pretty close to local prices.
For major items (appliance, construction materials etc) we shop around some. There is normally an entrepeneur willing to offer you a fair price just
to close the deal.
By the way, whatever happened to the question about whether it was proper in the Nomad forum to post pictures from trips other than to Baja? I
remember the poll but didn't see a decision.
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
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It happens everywhere - Disneyland's "California resident" price; Hawaii's "kamaaina" rates on air travel, hotel, dinners; the SD Zoo's "resident"
pass; Lake Tahoe's "local's" skiing prices; "senior" rates everywhere, etc.
It's "OK" in the sense that it's legal I suppose, although seems discriminatory.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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Oso,
I appreciate your post. Having vented on the subject now, and having given it some thought, I think that what you are presenting is how it is!
I appreciate your perspective. We all have self interest and it is our responsibility to provide for that self interest. Some of this runs counter to
my own value system. It is difficult when one’s own value system runs crossways to the majority.
I imagine that those who oppose the right of woman to choose how to deal with becoming pregnant run into a similar dilemma, they think that the choice
of abortion is murder, while a woman terminating a pregnancy is doing something that, though difficult, and not wanted, is doing something that fits
into her own moral framework and the moral framework of most who believe this is the right of the mother.
Great discussion, I am learning a lot, I love this dialogue and appreciate the different perspectives. Viva Nomads!
I can see that I have a rather rigid, value laden place in me about this issue. I can see how I get hooked by what is the norm. If it is the norm,
then my gyroscope is out of whack. When in Rome and buyer beware are the operating principals.
I turned this into a moral issue, my bad. It is just human nature to get the best deal that one can and to "soak the rich". I just don't like being
"the rich".
In the 70s I felt like I had a big target on my chest that read: White, Male, Middle Class, Chauvinistic Pig and the cause of it all! Got called a
chauvinist pig for holding a door open for a woman in the 70s, and more. I need to add "rich" to the white, male, chauvinistic pig and understand that
is how on some levels I am viewed. Not a bad thing really. Like being called Wayo (sorry for the spelling), or Gordo, not personal really, just how
people greet one another using the most obvious feature. I used to hear myself referred to a Gringo in Mexico, as in "EH Gringo", "Want some xxxxx?",
seems that the term is no longer used, at least to ones face.
In every state in the Union I have been exposed to a different price structure for local for things like fishing licenses and this does not bother me.
It is up front and direct. It is the hidden and in my view duplicities of how this is handled that bothers me the most. I really don't like double
standards.
I now see that this system of mordida is really just a way to extract as much from the "outsider" as possible. Nothing more and nothing less, not
personal, no need for pique.
I am reminded of our lengthy discussion of cultural differences and how some differences really rankle. This is one of those issues for me. My
challenge is not to take it personally and to learn how to better play the game.
I suppose that in Mexico I will always find my jaw tightening when I see that the ground wire is not connected when houses, offices, public buildings
are built in Mexico. This is particularly rankling for me having lost some $20,000 in electrical equipment that was fried in a major resort complex on
Mainland Mexico because the ground wire was left dangling above the ground post to which it was supposed to be connected. It was deemed to be "An act
of god". I think attributing to the electrician such a noble title is a bit over the top, but who am I to argue such things.
I appreciate the dialogue on this issue and hope I have not offended with my rants.
Thanks sd for starting this thread.
Iflyfish
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Natalie Ann
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2819
Registered: 8-22-2003
Location: Berkeley
Member Is Offline
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Longlegs... pig wrestling... get out while you can!
Nena
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
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In El Fuerte, there's a guy who has a rowboat for the "ferry" across the Rio El Fuerte. I used his ferry 3 or 4 times while I was in El Fuerte a
couple nights. He charged me 25 cents, which I thought was a cheap price. I found out later that the cost of the ferry is 10 cents.
When I was in Yucatan, I took a sightseeing ride down the Rio Hondo. I asked "how much" - he said $5. Later, he picked up some passengers to take
them across the river into Belize. He asked me if I wanted to see the channel that is an illegal crossing into Belize. I said sure. He dropped them
off, and they paid with a coin - likely a fraction of what I paid.
In short, it's a fact of life - especially for the traveler, who is instantly recognized as someone who is just passing through and so easily duped.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Turista Pricing
While the practice has been going on in Mexico on a regular basis for many, many years, I have seen the same thing in Smalltown USA, but usually
related to specific events when the tourists come to town in big numbers.
In my younger days, I worked in Salinas for a short time and there was a Hofbrau restaurant with fantastic Prime Rib that we would lunch at often.
Going in there once during "Big Week" when the California Rodeo was the big tourist attraction, I found the prices virutally Doubled. When I asked,
the answer was "Hey, this is one week out of the year when we can make a killing. Everything will be back to normal next week". Unlike the Mexicans,
they were universal in their gouging. No discount for the locals. I found it was the same all over town.
When I first moved to Yucca Valley, the restaurants and small stores would do the same thing on their "Grubstake Days" weekend. A once-yearly chance
to score.
[Edited on 4-25-2008 by MrBillM]
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | | However, when you moved to Mexico to try and live like a local on what they spend... maybe a non-tourist area would have been better than La Paz? As
long as you look like a gringo (tourist, foreignor, etc.), you will be treated as such by those who don't know you. |
David, last I checked, MY income; low as it is by typical gringo standards; far exceeds the typical local monthly income! As to my
logic for picking La Paz as my home, it was a well-thought out decision on my part for my own personal reasons...just as I assume your decisions to go
the places that you go are personal decisions based on your own unique criteria. Please give me some credit for having made a well-researched
decision which was right for MY lifestyle & MY personal circumstances rather than moving to an off-the-beaten-track sleepy little fishing village.
And I actually live about 10 miles outside of La Paz, lest you're thinking I'm in the hustle & bustle of downtown!
| Quote: | | Dollars ARE the second currency in Baja... at least in the northern state... I see locals using dollars all the time in markets to buy food, etc. If I
ever got a hint that it was disrespectful to use dollars instead of being benefitial to them, I would use only pesos. A friend of mine owns a Pemex
station and a motel in Baja... so I do have input from a local about this stuff. |
Where on earth did I say or
even imply it's "disrespectful" to use USD rather than pesos? Yeah,
I know Antonio, too! My point is that local individuals & business owners do usually benefit from the exchange rate, and for gringos to minimize
possible differences in price schedules, they should pay in pesos.
| Quote: | | I get the impression from 'many' who use pesos in Mexico that is purely to get the best deal... pay the lowest possible price... not leave anything
extra. |
David, there you go again generalizing from a tourist mentality!! Can you stop...go ahead & take
a deep breath, yourself...and try to view things from a permanent full-time
resident perspective? I (and all the gringos I know) use pesos because they are the local currency. I totally resent your implication our reasoning
is to "pay the lowest possible price... not leave anything extra"! (the 'many' being in quotes didn't soften my reaction at all!) I pay in pesos because pesos are the local currency & prices are posted in pesos,
and I'm a local resident! And if you missed it in my original post, I said I DO pay tips based on service received. I give tips in
appropriate circumstances, I don't tip contractors who quoted a job, unless an individual did an extraordinary job or went out of his way to
accomplish that job. I tip at restaurants, gas stations & the unpaid baggers at the grocery store. I tip based on service received, not as a
bribe to receive good service!
| Quote: | | So, please don't think I am being arrogant by using dollars... I am trying to give just a little more for the good time I have in Baja, that's all.
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You obviously feel that you're doing a good deed. Please try to understand it from a different
perspective...IMO, what you are doing (IF you always pay in USD & overpay everyone & everything, as you claim) is two-fold. Yes, you
are personally helping a few individuals on occasion who receive sub-standard pay. But I think you are also doing more harm by perpetuating the "all
gringos are rich" mentality; you're teaching that it's okay to EXPECT gringos to pay more solely based on them being gringo! You're sending a message
that it's okay to gouge gringos, which unfortunately drives prices up for the under-paid local population, who don't get cost-of-living-raises!
You're encouraging business owners to set tourist-targeted pricing & the truly poor Mexicans who barely survive on sub-standard pay don't get a
pay raise to go along with that business-owner's increased profit margin!
Please think about this from a different perspective than your own.
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
Member Is Offline
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Has the spirit of JR returned and found a spokesperson in longlegs?
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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Gadget
Senior Nomad
Posts: 851
Registered: 9-10-2006
Location: Point Loma CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Blessed with another day
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Dear Longlegs,
By the way I love your handle, bet there's a story behind that.
I agree with most of what you say and respect your knowledge of living the viva loca in Mex.
I would like you to know that I am one of probably many who envy your situation, living full time in Baja on $1,000 per month. I would like to try
that, and think I could. Personally, I think you are a little defensive of what I see as a true blessing and great fortune. Just my perspective
though 
To the thread,
This has been a great topic and discussion from lots of perspectives. It is also great to have intelligent and thoughtful newbies join the board and
pose such questions. Thanks sd
As a matter of habit along with my previous post I try to connect with Baja and its people on a personal level. I guess, even though I'm tall, lanky
and blond (a good percentage grey now) and definitely not a local, I speak the language pretty good, eat at local eateries as much as possible and try
to show that I am more than just a tourist. I truely try to be set apart from that mind set on a personal level and want the locals to feel that way
about me also. I have experienced many great acts of friendship and kindness in my 35 years of traveling in Mexico, hopefully because of this.
I do not expect anything in the way of deals when I am not in a big tourist area. I want a local to give me a fair price because he or she thinks I
am not just a tourist, but a traveler who is truely interested in them and their country. I pay the marked or asked price and don't haggle, with that
mind set. If I get clipped, or think I have, I leave with a pleasant and grateful attitude in the hopes they will remember me the next time and
perhaps be more fair with me. If they aren't the next time then they don't see my business anymore. Be it said though, that I have some wonderful
friends along the peninsula who do remember me even having not seen me in years.
If I do find myself for whatever reason in an up priced tourist area, then it is by my choice and I pay the prices. In general I avoid those types of
areas except while driving through or of necessity. It seems like if I look back when I have haggled for something, that I never really felt that
good about it afterwards. It was more from the point of, I thought I could than that I needed to.
Now getting pulled over for a shake down, don't get me started there. Thats a whole different ball game and its on big time hagglefest!!!!
[Edited on 4-25-2008 by Gadget]
"Mankind will not be judged by their faults, but by the direction of their lives." Leo Giovinetti
See you in Baja
http://www.LocosMocos.com
Gadget |
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