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Sharksbaja
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Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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(sigh) What can I say.
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Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Barry A.
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This is sensitive stuff---------------as Sharks says.
Dr. Ritter can tell you where the "investigated" aboriginal site (s) is/are (his decision), but that is not for me to post here, I am thinking.
(contrary to my former arguments)
Believe me, Dr. Ritter does not have all the answers (nobody does), so there is a lot more investigative work to do in the area of Bahia de las
Animas. Understand that Dr. Ritter is probably more interested in the Aboriginal history than the Spanish history, and that may cause some confusion,
but he does have interest in both aspects, and is considered an expert in Baja archaeological matters, as far as they are known. There is a ton of
work still to be done, apparently, but now I am saying more than I really know.
At the risk of sounding dramatic, the plot thickens--------------stay tuned.
Barry
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Sharksbaja
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Thanks a bunch Barry for taking the time and giving a damn. It sure is a small world. I suppose we could have tracked him fdown but you being a friend
of his really gave this subject a kickstart.
We sometimes (not me:lol jump to conclusions hastily. I was suprised to see
David's "it's just a wall" stance. Obviously that is not the case.
David, Dr Ritter is an authority. You already commented as to the poor archaeological interests in Baja by local authorities. When you discuss this
with him please ask him if he's aware of other studies of "Cerro Gardner".
[Edited on 1-13-2009 by Sharksbaja]
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David K
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Location: San Diego County
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I have sent Dr. Ritter an email and invited him to write back or call me... I will let you guys know.
Sharks, the "it's just a wall" comment is my way of expressing the same attitude or lack of interest the Mexican authorities (INAH) shows. Perhaps it
is totally a lack of funding and that with so much in mainland Mexico, Baja is just not high on the list? It also may be the feeling of many of the
tourists that go to Baja for fishing, vacation, or to buy property. It is just not interesting to them.
It may be just a wall or piles of rocks and earth... but to us, it shows where a lot of people did a lot of work in the desert... we are interested in
knowing why... It had to be important!
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synch
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Mood: wandering...
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DK,
Wow, you've done Choral proud! Congratulations.
Did you need 4WD to get there?
Anyway to see a map of it for us "arm chair participants" or are you keeping it quiet?
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&...
BOY, do things grow slowly in the desert. Heck, I knew that already but your dramatic photos show that 43 years hasn't changed much - Very cool
stuff.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by Paulina
Waiting for the details... |
I am loading photos onto Photobucket from the trip (175)... Takes some time!
We came by to see you and Dern on our way back to Bahia Friday afternoon... alas, you left in the morning... perhaps just after we drove south early,
past your driveway.
Here is one more photo that was inspired by Pompano!:
The satellite maps of the site, are below...
[Edited on 1-9-2009 by David K] |
[Edited on 1-13-2009 by synch]
[Edited on 1-13-2009 by synch]
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Barry A.
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Synch--------if the Animas Fish camp is not occupied, or the little rancho abandoned, then you could get in trouble with a 2-wheel drive. You are
about 40 miles away from BOLA by road, and the side road into Animas is normally a "track", and it can be sandy/deep silt/very muddy. I have pulled
several 2-wheel drive trucks out of the sand on that road over the years-----on the other hand the road is often pretty good, and you might have no
problems at all. It just depends on the traffic, humidity, and when the last rain was.
You do not want to get stuck out there, in my opinion-------no water anywhere and a longggggg walk to safety.
Barry
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David K
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Hi Synch,
Thank you... I know that Choral had a big happy smile and high fives in heaven when I saw that palm tree and we climbed up that mountainside to see
the walls!
As for the road... that day, it was all very fine... 2WD only.
When you reach the fork, the left branch is the more used 'dry' route... However, the right branch is the one that goes right past the dam, the palm,
the climb point and the desert floor wall... When it leaves the side of the mesa and before it rejoins the left branch 2.0 miles from the beach past
the fish camp, there is an area that looks like lunar high tides will flood, and an area of silt (Baja dust).... both very brief. If wet, turn around
and detour back 2.2 miles to the original fork, if you want to go to the beach after exploring. You can see the wall only from the left branch...
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David K
Honored Nomad
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Location: San Diego County
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Dr. Eric W. Ritter Archaeologist
Hello All,
I just spent quite a while on the phone with Dr. Ritter... He has looked at the photos here on Nomad.
I will give you some of the key points we dicussed:
His Cerro de las Calaveras is NOT the hill/ mesa of my photos and Choral Pepper's.
Burial was not done in rock circles such as those in my photos, but in caves or shallows.
His 'Cerro' is near the fish camp, on the bay. Carbon dating puts some of the activity there at approx. 600 years ago.
The walls in my photos are a mystery to him. Possible sheep herding application... to direct them up or down the mountain?
The reservoir/ dam and earth covered walls on the desert floor do seem to be more than what the native Indians would do, ie. Spanish... But, he is
uncertain.
The palm tree is an indication of water... Is it a date palm or a native fan palm? Can it be determined from the trunk?
As far as he knows, no archaeological work has been done on the mesa or around it... I asked how he would know and he said because he has read every
published work done since 1969. If a team researched it, it wasn't published.
Dr. Ritter said it IS an interesting site!
We talked further about other Baja projects, INAH, etc. We even had a dialog about a Gonzaga area site. A very nice person and I am happy that Barry
A. was able to make the connection for us!
He said he is going to ask W. Michael Mathes (Baja mission historian) to examine my photos...
Very exciting!
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
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Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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and....
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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... and I will let you know when I find out more, if there is more!
STAY TUNED!
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avid
Junior Nomad
Posts: 41
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: SW Oregon
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Mood: adventurous
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The walls in my photos are a mystery to him. Possible sheep herding application... to direct them up or down the mountain?
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In livestock terms it would be called a drift fence. Drift fences are non-contiguous fences built to prevent livestock from going in directions they
are not supposed to. I would imagine they were grazing the flats from this location to the bay. Each evening they were bedded down on the top.
Sheepherder's love high spots. Even today herders in the West deal with predators on a daily basis. Imagine what it would have been like in Baja back
then. The rock circles could have been pens were ewes giving birth were kept for a couple of days until the lambs could move with the flock.
Flocks of sheep are one of the first signs of settlement. Because they are controlled by a herder and dogs there is almost no need for any
infrastructure to support the operation. As I mentioned before, this could have been a beta-test for the proposed Mission. Send a couple of herders
and a flock of sheep up and see if they could survive. The other thing herders do is learn a lot about an area. They have scads of time on their
hand. They have to move the sheep around to keep them fed. In the meantime they can do all kinds of exploring and rockwork.
avid
Ashland, OR
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David K
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Thank you avid... a very good possibility and explanation. I appreciate your input here!
It is possible this was a dual site, as well... ie. A native camp (the sleeping circles all contained clams, oyster, scallop shells) on top. A
livestock center (water reservoir, drift fences, mesa for the night away from coyotes. Or, something else?
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Sharksbaja
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Ok, I'm really confused now. The rings are dated 1000-6000 years old. Did they have sheep in Baja at that time or are you inferring the rings came
first then the walls were built during Spanish times?
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
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David K
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Registered: 8-30-2002
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Rings may be very old... a lot older than the walls...
There were different groups at the mesa site, perhaps?
1) Ancient/ Pre-historic native Indians (rock rings, shells, metate)
2) Spanish soldiers or advance team to establish the next mission north or avid's idea of sheep hearders (Basque?) brought in to see if the site works
for them (rock walls, reservoir dam, canal)
3) Mexican ranchers of the late 1800's or early 1900's (Arce or Villavicencio family) who tried to raise sheep there.
The desert varnish is heavy on the wall rocks... that does take hundreds of years per some reports I read...
Maybe there was a good spring at the base of that mesa... Indians used it 600 years ago then came the Jesuits 260 years ago and built the dams and
earth walls below the mesa... and planted date palms... the seedling of one survived to what was seen in 1966 and today. Dr. Ritter said a similar
palm was by the fish camp's water source, years ago.
The spring dried up, so the padres went up to Adac (San Borja) instead?
If you look at a map, Las Animas and San Borja are about the same distance from Santa Gertrudis!
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avid
Junior Nomad
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Location: SW Oregon
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Good campsites are good campsites whether you are a Native American or a sheepherder. I was looking around for Basque sheepherder and rock wall
references and ran across this about rock blinds built by the Paiutes to hunt Bighorns.
Paiute Bighorn hunting
| Quote: |
All through the region, Paiute stone hunting blinds are concealed in the boulders on both sides of any saddle through which the Bighorn sheep might
pass.
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Furthur looking turned up a reference in Anza-Borrego Park about stone circles as bases for brush wickiups.
Stone Circles in Anza-Borrego (Do a page search on Stone)
| Quote: |
A half-dozen aboriginal stone circles crown a knoll at the confluence of two arroyos.
The rings, about seven feet in diameter, probably served to anchor brush huts.
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The idea of herding Bighorn sheep and domestic sheep are not inconsistent with each other. It could be that a herder found the walls used by the
natives to hunt bighorns and thought it would be a good place to build a couple of reservoirs and use the work already in place. The plains Indians
built corrals in the vertical sided draws of Eastern Montana. They would run buffalo up the draw and then a quick wall was throw in place behind them.
Then they would have showered them with stone weapons. Of course, everyone knows about the buffalo jumps.
If you were a Spanish Missionary and you wanted good herders you would have definitely called for the Basques.
[Edited on 1-15-2009 by avid]
avid
Ashland, OR
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Sharksbaja
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Good sleuthing avid. It would be of interest to note that the remains of the bones that were subjected to isotope testing revealed their diet(s).
It seems fairly conclusive that mammals made up a very small percentage of their diet. I did not see bighorns listed as part of their diet but surely
is quite plausible that they somehow managed to trap and kill them.
We need some experts to go find out.
I have seen those bighorns in Alaska literally leap from precipice to precipice with little effort. Those walls sure are low for containing those
beasts.
They really are oddly constructed and placed.
David, you are probably correct about the use of the area by different cultures, tribes and peoples. The fact that water was available so close to
the sea enabled the inhabitants to thrive. Perhaps the place was well established for eons.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
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Taco de Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Hello All,
I just spent quite a while on the phone with Dr. Ritter... He has looked at the photos here on Nomad.
I will give you some of the key points we dicussed:
The palm tree is an indication of water... Is it a date palm or a native fan palm? Can it be determined from the trunk?
|
First, congratulations on findinding this interesting site!
Second, that IS a date palm Phoenix dactylifera, not a native fan palm Washintonia spp. the trunk is quite distinct. They do like
water, but can be planted by birds, coyotes, or vaqueros spitting out seeds. They don't necessarily indicate long term "European habitation". Plus,
with dates you need a single male tree and lots of female trees to have a "date orchard". You will not get any (or very many, depending on how the
wind blows) dates with a single isolated tree.
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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David K
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Wonderful news Taco de Baja!!!
That does make the mission connection more realistic... Since fan palms are all over Baja in the canyons, but date palms were introduced by the
Jesuits in the mid 1700's. That palm has been there for maybe 75-100 years...? Sprouted from a date from the first ones, 260 years ago? Too bad there
isn't a photo of it in 1966 to see the difference in 43 years.
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Taco de Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Wonderful news Taco de Baja!!!
That does make the mission connection more realistic... |
Not really, David. I have seen dates growing in very remote areas. Probably "planted" by birds, coyotes, vaqueros, or Nomads... The fact that there are no European artifacts at the site: glazed ceramics, roof
tiles, floor tiles, buttons, glass, coins, etc (At least, none noted in the PCAS article on the site I sent you) suggest to me it is primarily a
Native American site. The walls could have been built by vaqueros, but since there is no European debris, I can't see any European habitation
component.
There really should be something. For example, when I visited the San Pedro Martir Mission site with Jack Swards, Pappy, Mexitron, and others there
was quite a bit of European debris in the area from the mission era.
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Wonderful news Taco de Baja!!!
That does make the mission connection more realistic... |
Not really, David. I have seen dates growing in very remote areas. Probably "planted" by birds, coyotes, vaqueros, or Nomads... The fact that there are no European artifacts at the site: glazed ceramics, roof
tiles, floor tiles, buttons, glass, coins, etc (At least, none noted in the PCAS article on the site I sent you) suggest to me it is primarily a
Native American site. The walls could have been built by vaqueros, but since there is no European debris, I can't see any European habitation
component.
There really should be something. For example, when I visited the San Pedro Martir Mission site with Jack Swards, Pappy, Mexitron, and others there
was quite a bit of European debris in the area from the mission era. |
I confirmed with Dr. Ritter by phone that the hill was NOT checked by him... it is not any of the sites listed in his papers.
There may be buttons in the dirt? The most interesting thing indicating European activity to me is the dam/ reservoir. Dr. Ritter said that is not
typical of what natives have done in Baja...
Elizabeth and I didn't do any digging, just observation and photography. The date palm originated from the Jesuits is what I meant... Sure, it could
have been a bird dropping after flying there from San Ignacio... but I like to think in more romantic terms!
Thank you for your input here!
(edited by suggestion of T de B)
[Edited on 1-15-2009 by David K]
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