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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Well...there you go, bajaeng. Insist that your gardener or whatever wear nothing more than a jockstrap and a pushup bra. If he complys and likes it,
your troubles will have just begun.
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irenemm
Senior Nomad
Posts: 623
Registered: 7-16-2009
Location: vicente guerrero, baja
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Mood: relaxed
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you must supply them if it is a uniform
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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I would think that if there is no reasonable/legal and absolutely effective way to fire a poorly performing employee without the American employer
being subject to having to pay the EMPLOYEE off, then there is no hope and it is absolutely unsafe (if not illogical) to have any employees at all.
If the employee can always come out ahead and get paid off for resisting his being fired, then there is every incentive for Mexican employees to
resist...so they will resist and make legal claims... why not? It's a good "business" decision for him/her and he/she has nothing legally to lose and
can and will always come out ahead financially, albeit immoral, illogical and unfair. If this is so, I wouldn't hire anyone that isn't an easily
provable typical independent contractor. I wouldn't start a business there in any event. That means that the only thing Mexico is good for is to
visit and fish there. That's it.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
That means that the only thing Mexico is good for is to visit and fish there. That's it. |
No arguement from me.
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irenemm
Senior Nomad
Posts: 623
Registered: 7-16-2009
Location: vicente guerrero, baja
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Mood: relaxed
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also if they don't do the job that is in the job description you can write up a letter for them to sign have a witness too and take it to the labor
board and after three you have more of a right to get rid of them without paying an arm or leg.
theyget 3 months and 12 or 15 days for each year they worked for you plus any vacatin, christmas, and profit sharing due them if you are a business.
not a business no profit
good luck
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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One thing I've heard hasen't been brought up here. I didn't see it anyway.
I'm refering to restaurant business because that specifically is what I'll talk about.
If a restaurant owner hires an employee, until thirty days pass by, the employee is not considered permanant and covered by the overly protective
laws. They'll hire a waiter and lay him off after less than thirty days or get a written, signed contract that the job has a time limit.
I recently watched a cook almost cause a restaurant to close their doors because he had all of the protections and would come and go as he pleased.
He'd walk out in the middle of the dinner hour and if he offered any excuse, the restaurant had no recourse. Couldn't fire him.
Is anybody aware of this? Does it apply to other fields?
Dave....Are you out there? You would know.
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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Since there is no necessity or legal requirement to pay any benefits (severance pay, vacation pay, dick time, Christmas bonus, or other 'seguros')
to/for legitimately recognized independent contractors, I wonder if always having a contract (stipulating the work and the fact that they are thereby
agreeing to being recognized as an independent contractor in the arrangment) and requiring them to issue you a formal "factura" for each specific job
done as spelled out in the contract (let's say for work done on a house or a lot), that that should protect you as the payer or the "dueno" in the
contract.
Any thoughts on this?
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jls
Junior Nomad
Posts: 46
Registered: 4-9-2007
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"If you directly hire construction workers to do some repairs or remodeling on your house then you are self-contracting, and you are suppose to
register them with IMSS. In reality, for a short job, registration is usually not done. To be sure of avoiding trouble, you should pay the workers
by the job rather than by the day or week. That makes them independent contractors -- non-salaried workers -- and exempt from IMSS. (The voluntary
rule still applies; so if they ask to be registered, you must do it.)"
This is from the previously noted document.
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
One thing I've heard hasen't been brought up here. I didn't see it anyway.
I'm refering to restaurant business because that specifically is what I'll talk about.
If a restaurant owner hires an employee, until thirty days pass by, the employee is not considered permanant and covered by the overly protective
laws. They'll hire a waiter and lay him off after less than thirty days or get a written, signed contract that the job has a time limit.
I recently watched a cook almost cause a restaurant to close their doors because he had all of the protections and would come and go as he pleased.
He'd walk out in the middle of the dinner hour and if he offered any excuse, the restaurant had no recourse. Couldn't fire him.
Is anybody aware of this? Does it apply to other fields?
Dave....Are you out there? You would know. |
A permanent contract or contrato, basically means if you want to fire the guy, you have to pay him severance pay and vacations and other stuff. If you
want to pay, you can fire him on the spot. There isnt a law that forces you to keep an employee that you donīt want, unless your doing it because he
is gay or something like that, then we would get into discrimination but thats something entirely different. Having said that, when you make your
employee sign a contract, the contract clearly has to point to his responsabilities, his working hours, his superiors, and the things he is expected
to do in case of an emergency. For example, a waiters contract might include a clause that gives you the right to get him to clean the restrooms and
wash dishes.
Now, if your employee is not performing well, or he is late, or he leaves work without permission. You start a process of PUTTING IT ON PAPER. That
means, if the guy is late, you writte a letter adressed to him, where you warn him that he has been showing up late, and that he needs to be on time
according to his contract. This letter is signed by you, two other witnesses, and him. Then you go to Secretaria del Trabajo and simply ask to have
the letter filed. In time, if your employee keeps screwing up, more and more letters will pile up, until you have the legal right to get rid of him
based on him not fullfilling his part of the contract. or basically, he is not good for the job.
In Mexico, if you want to fire someone on the spot out of nowhere, it will cost you. But if the employee is bad, you can fire him legally for not
doing its job, but it takes a little time and patience.
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jls
Junior Nomad
Posts: 46
Registered: 4-9-2007
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The men that work for us always do it by the job and not by salary or day rate. They call themselves contractors....so far all is good. The only
problem with a by the job is sometimes it takes a very long time for the job to be done and we have to pony up a fair start up fee keeping our fingers
crossed.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jls
The men that work for us always do it by the job and not by salary or day rate. They call themselves contractors....so far all is good. The only
problem with a by the job is sometimes it takes a very long time for the job to be done and we have to pony up a fair start up fee keeping our fingers
crossed. |
Again, contractor or not, you are responsible to see that Social Security is paid for the workers. All of them including the contractor. It all
falls on you. And, unless your passport has an eagle and a snake on the cover, it will fall even harder. You, the owner, cannot pass off the
responsibility to anyone else. One complaint from one of the workers and you will know of what I speak.
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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One important point I haven't seen mentioned here is the value of only working with individual contractors who come with several excellent references
from well known and trusted sources. If they need additional help on your job, follow the exact same process and pay for all work per job, not per
day/week.
These types of workers know they get good / regular work because of these referrals and are highly unlikely to do anything to lose that source.
Typically they will charge a little more because they are good / reliable at their trade / job performance but in my book it pays for itself. Going
this route on a long number of projects in Mexico over the years has helped me to avoid any of the problems some of you have had and I have been very
satisfied with the work they did.
(Knocking on wood as I post this...)
Cheapest is often more expensive in the long run. I prefer to go with the best referrals...
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
Having said that, when you make your employee sign a contract, the contract clearly has to point to his responsabilities, his working hours, his
superiors, and the things he is expected to do in case of an emergency. For example, a waiters contract might include a clause that gives you the
right to get him to clean the restrooms and wash dishes.
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Thanks, Jesse. My reference was to an employee who didn't sign a contract. The operator of the business wasn't aware of this detail. He learned.
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
I recently watched a cook almost cause a restaurant to close their doors because he had all of the protections and would come and go as he pleased.
He'd walk out in the middle of the dinner hour and if he offered any excuse, the restaurant had no recourse. Couldn't fire him.
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If my cook did that, I'd have him out in the parking lot over a cheap charcoal grill in the hot sun... Just standing there. I'd be in the kitchen. The
key is not placing yourself in the position where your employees think that they're not expendable.
I've never had a problem getting rid of dead weight. Of course, the best way to get rid of bad employees is to reward the good ones.
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jls
The men that work for us always do it by the job and not by salary or day rate. They call themselves contractors....so far all is good. The only
problem with a by the job is sometimes it takes a very long time for the job to be done and we have to pony up a fair start up fee keeping our fingers
crossed. |
Just think about this.
If a worker dies in your property, are you 100% sure the contractor will take all the responsability? because if he doesn't, its your responsability,
your life, your money.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
In time, if your employee keeps screwing up, more and more letters will pile up, until you have the legal right to get rid of him based on him not
fullfilling his part of the contract. or basically, he is not good for the job.
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Just curious....mas o menos, how many letters will be in that pile before the hammer drops?
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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We've already established that if you fire an employee and they make a claim, you have to "pay him off" with benefits and maybe a fine. But do you
have to pay benefits to someone who has voluntarily quit?
Also, if you don't actually fire him, but he voluntarily stops coming to work AND files a claim against you for firing him, DO YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY
BENEFITS and a fine ("pay him off") in spite of your representing that you have not and are not firing him and that his job is still open to him and
in fact allow him to come to work to continue to work.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Also, if you don't actually fire him, but he voluntarily stops coming to work AND files a claim against you for firing him, DO YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY
BENEFITS and a fine ("pay him off") in spite of your representing that you have not and are not firing him and that his job is still open to him and
in fact allow him to come to work to continue to work. |
Jeezo...Who knows? The case which I mentioned, the cook just said he had to leave during more than one shift because his ride was leaving. He, as I
would have thought, quit his job. Wrong. Since he gave reason, he was within his rights.
I'm freakin' speechless. All of this defies logic.
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
In time, if your employee keeps screwing up, more and more letters will pile up, until you have the legal right to get rid of him based on him not
fullfilling his part of the contract. or basically, he is not good for the job.
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Just curious....mas o menos, how many letters will be in that pile before the hammer drops? |
With 3 you have something to work with, but 4 to 5 is best.
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monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
| Quote: | Originally posted by jls
The men that work for us always do it by the job and not by salary or day rate. They call themselves contractors....so far all is good. The only
problem with a by the job is sometimes it takes a very long time for the job to be done and we have to pony up a fair start up fee keeping our fingers
crossed. |
Just think about this.
If a worker dies in your property, are you 100% sure the contractor will take all the responsability? because if he doesn't, its your responsability,
your life, your money. |
You are apparently responsible for your workers on the way to and from the job. I
know a contractor who's workers were rear ended by a water truck on the way home from work seriously injuring an employee, they went after the
contractor for compensation not the driver of the water truck.
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