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wessongroup
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by Packoderm
Liberals tend to either be completely for illegal immigration out of compassion for poor foreigners or against it out of concern for the American
worker and American culture. |
Naw, I'm a liberal on this issue and I'm against illegal immigration and all for the wall. Why? Out of concern for the Mexicans. Can you imagine
having a dream, leaving you home for a foreign country and risking your life to achieve it, all to find out it was an illusion and you're surrounded
by people that hate you? |
And that's the truth.... if one thinks there is not a basis overall against the Hispanic people with in the United States... get real... and for me,
they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes which felt the full force of the
European Culture .. and still do... my son is half American Indian "Papago" .... and he feels it... and he is here legally as he was born in Fresno,
CA... 30 years ago...
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes which felt the full force of the
European Culture .. |
Mexicans would be first to deny that as would the DNA of Hernán Coréz swimming around their gene pool.
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bombero
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No one to my knowledge has ever died of thirst crossing legally. However many in the US have died ,including peace officers at he hands of those who
crossed illegally! . I,ve visited Mexico and Baja many times during the last 35 years and have met many dying citizens, dying for a car or a better
car, a house or a better house. Dying for better conforts of life, a better future for their family, but I,ve seen no one dying of hunger as in the
African Countries. . Uncontrolled immigration can destroy any country socially, economically, and politically. Take a #, get in line and wait your
turn!
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Bajahowodd
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Dennis makes a good point. To many folks in the US, there is a stereotype of Mexicans that tends to be dark-skinned, with indian features. That's
because the vast majority of immigrants from Mexico, especially illegals, tend to be native American or mestizo (mixed blood). They are the poor.
They are the uneducated. There is a long cultural history in Mexico of identifying with the European heritage. In places like Mexico City and
Guadalajara one will encounter many folks who clearly appear European. A premium was placed on fair skin, blond hair, etc. A caste system, if you
will. In fact, as far as the US is concerned, until the Census Bureau decided they wanted more detailed data, Mexicans were considered to be white.
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wessongroup
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes which felt the full force of the
European Culture .. |
Mexicans would be first to deny that as would the DNA of Hernán Coréz swimming around their gene pool. |
Among others swimming around in their gene pool, just like my boy.... but they still get the short end of the stick.. about the only good news I've
seen for the Native American's is they are buying back their land and putting it into Federal Trust... don't think they are worrying about DNA at this
point in time, nor am I, .... but, rather getting back their "culture" and what is wrong with that ...... or is there only one approved "culture"?,
one religion, one way to talk, one way to eat.. dress, look, hair type, hair color, aahhhhh... missing something here... exactly the point k-rico was
making.. it's an illusion for some, unattainable.. and don't put all your marbles in one basket on the DNA... what if, we learn in the near future,
that someone from a far and distant galaxy came here and seeded earth with their "gene pool" now wouldn't that be a real eye opener ... and a really a
big one for some institutions to deal with....
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wessongroup
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bombero
No one to my knowledge has ever died of thirst crossing legally. However many in the US have died ,including peace officers at he hands of those who
crossed illegally! . I,ve visited Mexico and Baja many times during the last 35 years and have met many dying citizens, dying for a car or a better
car, a house or a better house. Dying for better conforts of life, a better future for their family, but I,ve seen no one dying of hunger as in the
African Countries. . Uncontrolled immigration can destroy any country socially, economically, and politically. Take a #, get in line and wait your
turn! |
Hey, what are you smoking.. send me some... oh, that's right you qualified your statement with ignorance (to my knowledge).. really smooth.. as for no
one dying of starvation... and comparing Mexico's environmental setting to Africa's ... aaahhhh gee, why didn't potatoes sprout up in Africa.. like
many other plants in the America's which are not present in Africa.. you can't compare apples to oranges... they are not the same..
Africa is suffering from a extended drought, blood diamonds, the largest source of gold and diamonds found in the world.. believe many of their
problems are also tied to the European culture landing on them and taking much of their culture away also..
And just to add on, while working for the State of California, it was not uncommon to find 30-40 guys living in one house with no water, no toilet, no
gas, and just cooking on an open fire, breakfast burrito's.. this was not in Mexico, but in most of the Counties I worked in with the Department of
Food and Agriculture in the 70's and 80's and I know things have not changed... other than their is 40-50% unemployment in the West side of Fresno
County... no Ag work, as the Federal Government has cut back all water to grows of "row" crops, permanent plantings are getting first pull off the
Feather River and all other sources... keep you fingers crossed.. as your prices on food should be seeing a pretty good jump this year....
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MrBillM
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Apples and Oranges
Speaking of which:
"other than their is 40-50% unemployment in the West side of Fresno County... no Ag work, as the Federal Government has cut back all water to grows of
"row" crops, permanent plantings are getting first pull off the Feather River and all other sources... keep you fingers crossed.. as your prices on
food should be seeing a pretty good jump this year...."
WHAT would the aforementioned problem (Feds cutting back on Water) have to do with the Illegal Immigration PROBLEM ?
The usual argument from the "Immigrant" supporters is that they provide cheap labor and Food prices would skyrocket without them.
Which is Bull since the labor that is supplied by the Illegals is only a small part of the market price. AND, whatever increase occurred would be a
result of putting LEGAL residents to work. Isn't that GOOD in a time of +10 percent LEGAL unemployment ? IF it could happen RIGHT NOW, it would
take Five years of job creation at the rate of 250,000 per month to bring the Unemployment rate back down to the "Normal" 5 percent.
As far as 30-40 living in one house, the usual reason is that they're sending a big percentage of their income back home to Mexico. Remittances from
the U.S. is the number two source of Mexican revenue. Well, at least before the Crash.
[Edited on 1-1-2010 by MrBillM]
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arrowhead
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
And that's the truth.... if one thinks there is not a basis overall against the Hispanic people with in the United States... get real... and for me,
they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes ... |
I know you are our newest "expert" in these matters, but I just have to tell you that the typical Mexican would be very insulted by your statement.
You have all the cultural acumen of a slug.
If you don't belive me, just walk up to the next Mexican you see and tell him he is "muy indio".
No soy por ni contra apatía.
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wessongroup
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I don't support Illegal Immigration, did not say that I did.. only that the unemployment for Hispanics on the west side of Fresno County is between
40-50% due to no planting.
I don't care what you think the usual argument for "Immigrant supporters" is... really
As to what they are paid, thought I made that clear.. I used to see, 30-40 guys living in an abandoned house out in the sticks.. they were paid
nothing, which again ties into the point k-rico was making about the "dream" these folks have about coming up to the States and making a "whole bunch
of money" and find it's just not there for them... they get the scraps, if they are lucky....
And if you want to stop Illegal immigration, make the lending industry enforce current laws on the books about lending to business which employes
undocumented workers.. I used to work in lending and the look I got when I suggested that this be included on business credits... as so many of the
Banks customers had entire employee bases of illegal immigrants.. which I saw as a credit risk.. but, silly me.. it's no risk it is the way business
is conducted here in most of the urban areas in the United States, why do you think this issue continues... follow the money..
I believe OK, does have a law that is actively enforced about this very subject [no illegals can get a job without and ID].. but then OK, does not
grow the same kind of crops, as California nor does it have a garment industry, the Long Beach Harbor, Los Angles Harbor, restaurants along with many
other situations which make a true comparison just about impossible...
You might want to rethink what I wrote above, as I did not write what you stated.... what I said was, this individual was making a point, that to HIS
KNOWLEDGE, no one has ever died of thirst trying to cross the desert from Mexico to the United States.. and I wanted to know what he was smoking, as
it must be some heavy duty bud.... following along with a complete denial of any one starving to death, was just adding in, that most of the people
living on the west side of Fresno County and others must be toughing it out, as there is no work.. so they have no money, therefore no food, shelter,
and the rest. Where you going to get something to eat in Fresno County in Jan. 2010.. there is nothing up, unless you want to chew on some sugar
beets.. or the bark off Almond trees.. Oh, that's right one could go up to Zacky Farms in Merced County and maybe get some spilled grain from around
the elevators... or some hay from the dairies please...
At least down here in Mexico, you can go out and get something out of the ocean.. or wipe a window or beg on the streets.. I don't get out much
anymore but, panhandling in the States is not as big as it used to be... just guessing..
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
A premium was placed on fair skin, blond hair, etc. |
For sure. You don't see a lot of sun-tan oil on your grocers shelf down here.
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wessongroup
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| Quote: | Originally posted by arrowhead
| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
And that's the truth.... if one thinks there is not a basis overall against the Hispanic people with in the United States... get real... and for me,
they are Native Americans... no different than the Lakota Sioux, Apache, Shawnee, and many, many other tribes ... |
I know you are our newest "expert" in these matters, but I just have to tell you that the typical Mexican would be very insulted by your statement.
You have all the cultural acumen of a slug.
If you don't believe me, just walk up to the next Mexican you see and tell him he is "muy indio". |
Never claimed to be an expert, just married to a Mexican/American Indian Papago and have a son who is half Mexican/American Indian Papago ..
And for most American Indian's it does not surprise me that they do not want to be associated with "being" what they are.. this as their culture has
been denigrated and/or destroyed by the European culture for the past 500 years.. and trying to get a job in the white man's world is difficult in
most cases...
And for walking up to a stranger and telling someone, that... why would I do that..
I have discussed this topic for over 40 years with my wife's family and others... no one has ever shot me, pulled a knife or got physical one time..
in some cases they did not agree.. and they would rather cling to a "concept" that they at some point in time were "Spanish"... which makes them
"better", well I don't see it that way...
It's about the individuals, not race and/or culture... that's the way I see it, and that is what I'm talking about... read into it what ever you
want...
You have your take, I have mine, and I'm telling you all... not taking shot from the outside... what is your family history, have they ever worked in
Copper Mines, have they ever been field workers, ever washed dishes for a living, ever been a "swamper" at the produce market.. worked in a saluter
house, a rendering plant... ever been put in jail for something they did not do, just because they are Hispanic/Amerian Indian...
Thanks it all helps.... in my opinion
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Skeet/Loreto
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group: Some of what you are posting is on the mark, but you are leaving out some things:
My First Visit to the Richest Agricultural County in the World-Fresno County!! Came in 1954 when I entered the School of Criminology/Police Science at
Fresno State College and took a Part time Job with the Fresno County Agri as a Cantalope Inspector.
When Group refers to the unemployment he is referring to that which happens each year doing the Winter Season.
Fact. The Dept. Of Employment at Fresno County has been controlled by the Mexicanos for near 40 years, Fact-?Check it out Group.I happen to know an
highly approve as they send "Their own people out and tell them they had better stay on the job and do a good one"'
Ceasar Chavez came a long and was able to get some real advances for the Mesican Field Worker and Group Have you checked the LGoing Wage for an
Irrigation Mexicano Field worker ???
Have you checked the going rate for a Dairy Worker. and Group Please include the Workmans Comp. priviledges included..
I have been involed with the Mexicano for many years, in all my time I know that they resent being coupled with the native Americans. Many people with
Indian Blood such as I have difficultiy wondering why the Basic native American {Indian} cannot improve his Culture. Casinos?? and the same as the
Blacks -Entertainment NBA NFL RAP Misuc????
In my 38 years in Baja I found the people much different thatn is being put forth by Group, I lived at San Nicholas for 4 years with the Mexicano
Families. They are a Proud Peoiple, hard working as a group{Which you cannot say for the Indians and Blacks}
Otherwise why do they risks their Lives to come to the States.?
In my many years in the Fresno Area, I found them to be real good workers and Human beings, They wanted to do better such as a guy named Phillip
Sanchez.
Yes, there is and there will awlways be Hate for other people.
Yes there are Gangs and some kids not being educated, but through the Mist there are others doping good and enjoying their Lives.
hey Group! Been to dos Palos lately?? How about Los Banos??
If you are interested I have 10 acres real close to Dos Palos that i will let you have for a 1/2 Million. I will even carry a contract for 10% on a 20
years Note.
Let me Know.
Skeet
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wessongroup
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Fresno County
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
group: Some of what you are posting is on the mark, but you are leaving out some things:
My First Visit to the Richest Agricultural County in the World-Fresno County!! Came in 1954 when I entered the School of Criminology/Police Science at
Fresno State College and took a Part time Job with the Fresno County Agri as a Cantalope Inspector.
When Group refers to the unemployment he is referring to that which happens each year doing the Winter Season.
Fact. The Dept. Of Employment at Fresno County has been controlled by the Mexicanos for near 40 years, Fact-?Check it out Group.I happen to know an
highly approve as they send "Their own people out and tell them they had better stay on the job and do a good one"'
Ceasar Chavez came a long and was able to get some real advances for the Mesican Field Worker and Group Have you checked the LGoing Wage for an
Irrigation Mexicano Field worker ???
Have you checked the going rate for a Dairy Worker. and Group Please include the Workmans Comp. priviledges included..
I have been involed with the Mexicano for many years, in all my time I know that they resent being coupled with the native Americans. Many people with
Indian Blood such as I have difficultiy wondering why the Basic native American {Indian} cannot improve his Culture. Casinos?? and the same as the
Blacks -Entertainment NBA NFL RAP Misuc????
In my 38 years in Baja I found the people much different thatn is being put forth by Group, I lived at San Nicholas for 4 years with the Mexicano
Families. They are a Proud People, hard working as a group{Which you cannot say for the Indians and Blacks}
Otherwise why do they risks their Lives to come to the States.?
In my many years in the Fresno Area, I found them to be real good workers and Human beings, They wanted to do better such as a guy named Phillip
Sanchez.
Yes, there is and there will awlways be Hate for other people.
Yes there are Gangs and some kids not being educated, but through the Mist there are others doping good and enjoying their Lives.
hey Group! Been to dos Palos lately?? How about Los Banos??
If you are interested I have 10 acres real close to Dos Palos that i will let you have for a 1/2 Million. I will even carry a contract for 10% on a 20
years Note.
Let me Know.
Skeet |
Dos Palos and Los Banos brings back memories ... trying to get across HWY 152 in the fog.. and the wind always blowing.. but you could get a good meal
at there Basque .. but like the Santa Fe downtown.. by the tracks.
Yeah, I bet you would, but not sure what I could do with 10 acres.. Kiwi, or Snow Peas.. bit small for any Ag... and I know what your talking about
in the winter for farm labor... but, Skeet's check with the Ag Commissioners Office, talk to Jerry Preito he is the Commission currently... tell him
Wiley said Hi... and that he needs to get things straighten out there in Fresno... regarding water...
This down turn has to with NO west-side planting of a number of money crops for all: lettuce, carrots, onions, tomatoes, melons, and a lot more not
being put in this year.. they are not getting the water this year to grow, so they are not planting, no new farm machinery sales, no dirt work, no
chemicals, no fertilizer.. Star Warehouse in Fresno, central distribution center for all Chemicals is almost empty, and they are channeling the water
it to the Trees that are in and are producing, and they are saying no to the row crops.. at this time...
It's a drought here in California, think Texas has a bit of one too, my sis in AR said that hay is being hauled from AR to TX ...
Unless God/Mother Nature puts about 7 years of snow pack up on the Sierras... things are going to really bad, as they might not have the water for
planting plus maybe the lawns and pools in SoCal.. they are not even sure what they are going to do with the Cotton this year and that's coming up
real quick..
I too, found the "Mexican hands" to be some of the best when it came to "growing" stuff.. they like "growing things" and they are really good.. and
were some of the hardest working folks I ran across .. they do it day in day out, in heat, working on their hands and knees or bent over at the waist
harvesting things.. some of you should try harvesting grapes in the San Quoin Valley in the summer time, with temps well over 108º in between rows of
grapes which keep the breeze if any down to nil... cutting bunches of grapes as quickly as possible, with spiders and mites getting down your neck,
fine sandy soil in your teeth, ears and the rest or putting down for grapes for raisins.. that is just one crop that is really very difficult to
harvest by hand...
As what they get, depends on WHO they work for.. and your right Caesar Chavez gave them things like a hourly wage, toilets in the field ... the "Big
Growers" tend to treat the folks better than the smaller growers.. If one got lucky and worked for some of the majors they did ok, they would give
them a truck, a radio next to there bed and minimum wage... or a little more and they were on call 24/7 and happy for the work.. as they were not
going to be getting a job in the Mall, Insurance Office, Banks, you know what I'm saying..
I got out of Ag, because they (Industry wide) don't pay for a guy that has a bunch of college... even folks that I knew who worked for the largest
grower in California, J.G. Boswell, only made $50,000 a year and that was in 1986.. I worked in Ag from 1974 till 1992 ... then moved into a
completely different industry, Banking.. now there is a group if you want to hang someone... I can recommend a few, and I will supply the rope...
I will say this about non working Indians.. it's a shame, and we contribute to them every year to try and help them out of their mess.. not sure one
can, but every little bit helps I like to think.. but as far as non working Indians, my wife's relatives work in the Copper mines in AZ.. now you want
to talk hard work.. never have done that one, I get claustrophobic can stand being underground... at all.. but they work in the mines... and live in
the Desert.. that is their land, been there for, a long time....
Only reason, they are on their own dirt: no oil, no gas, no water, no uranium, just some old copper to mine near by ...
Most just passed the area on by, as it was "just a desert"... with a bunch of Indians living like animals..
Well, they are still there... and good for them... and all the others ... don't think anyone asked them if they wanted a change.. it just happened..
and they are still dealing with it...
Good to hear someone else from Fresno area.. enjoy the work, but not the Government
And I fully understand what you are talking about with the folks that you have know for all those years down in the Baja.. every time I meet someone
here in Baja I'm thankful for them treating ME so nice.. I have been treated better here in Mexico as an old man, crippled up from living life then I
ever was in California.. they treat folks with respect, until your an ass then they treat you like a ass/burro... really like the burro that I have
picked up down here...
Thanks for your take on things, I appreciate anyone thoughts on the issue.. not trying to start a fight, just like everyone to be on the same page...
Only one question, "people much different thatn is being put forth by Group,"
Not sure what I have put up that is anything but respectful of a very proud people , that I have worked with, and have a great deal of love for both
family and non family number a great deal.. and as far as them improving them selves like "Kobe Bryant, Vic, Tiger Woods.. and many, many others who
have "improved" themselves.. I'll take the Native American as is, just like the ones your talking about down in the Baja... no white wash on him/her
thank you very much... just honest people living life with dignity and pride.. I'll drink to that I hope you will too.. Not sure I could do two
fingers of Tequila, but I'll toss down a couple in your honor.. have to get some of this "good" stuff they are talking about here ... I used to just
drink it.. never thought about the taste... after the second swig, it was like water..
Wiley
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abreojos
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Interesting topic for a bunch of Baja/Mexico lovers. Bottom line is if there weren't illegal jobs available for the Mexicans to work then there
wouldn't be an illegal immigration problem. Best point the finger in the right direction. Employers who exploit workers (all workers) and the
government for letting them do it. Living from paycheck to paycheck you either got to work, beg, become a thief or even worse die....
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Skeet/Loreto
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abreojos:
No sure what you mean by "illegal jobs".
I did an investigation many years ago for an Unidentified Person regarding Jobs.
There was not as many Employers hiring as indicated in the Media. Also the major Gripe among the mexicanos, legal and illegal was their treatmen by
the Stores on Prices!!
I too was surpised.
You would be surpised at the number of Mexicanos involved in the Fresno County and State of Calif. Govts.
Now here in Texas since coming back 4 years ago I have observed that the Twson and High Schools are still somewhat Divided. And there is a definite
Seperation in the Cowboys, just check out the Las Vegas Rodeo, But ther are a couple of Mexicano Cowboys that are starting to make inrioads,
If you gop down to the Local Hiring Corner in Amariloo you will not see any Mexicanos, it will be Poor White Druggies. All the mesicanos around the
Panhandle have Jobs at the Feed lots starting at $12.63 Hour, in Construction at about 15.00 Dollars an hour,
A good many of these Mesicanos are not Illegal,
Of Course this is just the opposite of the Car Makers employees exploiting there Employers by raising the Hourly pay scale to $70. and Hour.
Sure makes all us poor Folks pay High Price for Automobiles. Would you agree??
Skeet
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bombero
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crossing
| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
I don't support Illegal Immigration, did not say that I did.. only that the unemployment for Hispanics on the west side of Fresno County is between
40-50% due to no planting.
I don't care what you think the usual argument for "Immigrant supporters" is... really
As to what they are paid, thought I made that clear.. I used to see, 30-40 guys living in an abandoned house out in the sticks.. they were paid
nothing, which again ties into the point k-rico was making about the "dream" these folks have about coming up to the States and making a "whole bunch
of money" and find it's just not there for them... they get the scraps, if they are lucky....
And if you want to stop Illegal immigration, make the lending industry enforce current laws on the books about lending to business which employes
undocumented workers.. I used to work in lending and the look I got when I suggested that this be included on business credits... as so many of the
Banks customers had entire employee bases of illegal immigrants.. which I saw as a credit risk.. but, silly me.. it's no risk it is the way business
is conducted here in most of the urban areas in the United States, why do you think this issue continues... follow the money..
I believe OK, does have a law that is actively enforced about this very subject [no illegals can get a job without and ID].. but then OK, does not
grow the same kind of crops, as California nor does it have a garment industry, the Long Beach Harbor, Los Angles Harbor, restaurants along with many
other situations which make a true comparison just about impossible...
You might want to rethink what I wrote above, as I did not write what you stated.... what I said was, this individual was making a point, that to HIS
KNOWLEDGE, no one has ever died of thirst trying to cross the desert from Mexico to the United States.. and I wanted to know what he was smoking, as
it must be some heavy duty bud.... following along with a complete denial of any one starving to death, was just adding in, that most of the people
living on the west side of Fresno County and others must be toughing it out, as there is no work.. so they have no money, therefore no food, shelter,
and the rest. Where you going to get something to eat in Fresno County in Jan. 2010.. there is nothing up, unless you want to chew on some sugar
beets.. or the bark off Almond trees.. Oh, that's right one could go up to Zacky Farms in Merced County and maybe get some spilled grain from around
the elevators... or some hay from the dairies please...
At least down here in Mexico, you can go out and get something out of the ocean.. or wipe a window or beg on the streets.. I don't get out much
anymore but, panhandling in the States is not as big as it used to be... just guessing.. |
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Skeet/Loreto
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As to Hiring Illegals!?
What is the Answer for an Employer who needs Workers!!
The only Workers to be hired are Illegal??
It is true all over"
One of the Reasons for many companies to go overseas.
What is a Local Employer to do if there is not enough Workers..
What is the Answer. ??
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bombero
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Wessongroup: May i suggest that before you quote or comment on one,s post, make sure you read it correctly. I stated no one has died of thirst
crossing legally. Those who choose the "desert route" are not legally crossing. You read only what you wanted to believe! You chose not to comment on
the deaths in the US due to those who crossed "illegally" using the desert. "starving in Fresno" bark off almond trees, have you not heard of wefare,
food stamps, wic vouchers, or food banks???????? Perhaps you should open your home and bank account to help solve this crisis in your community!!
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The Gull
Super Nomad
Posts: 2223
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rancho Descanso, BCN
Member Is Offline
Mood: High
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Eugenio
To return to some of the details of the original article - I doubt that anyone on this board (correct me if I'm wrong) would deny water to a
dehydrated human in front of them. |
Just for the sake of clarity, would that include Packoderm and Arrowhead?
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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The Gull
Super Nomad
Posts: 2223
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rancho Descanso, BCN
Member Is Offline
Mood: High
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
All I know is that when I'm standing in line at the counter of a Panda Express, waiting to order Orange Chicken, I only see Mexicans working the woks
in the kitchen. Show me the Chinese outrage.
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Go to Sin Lee - they have chinese people.
Why do you eat at a chain craphole like Panda Express? It is worse than Pickup Stix. It is less healthy than McDonald's or Burger King. The barf
these two "chinese" franchises sling is not fit for swine.
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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