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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by audiobaja
It would be helpful for your cause to present a mining engineer that can present the real dangers.... |
"Acid Mine Drainage: Eating Away at the Environment
In the United States and Canada, gold mines--some more than 100 years old, some recently closed, and some active--are leaking acidic water, resulting
in hundreds of millions of dollars in remediation costs. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) officials estimate that 40% of western U.S.
watersheds are affected by mining pollution. There are more than 25 mines, some of them active, on the U.S. Superfund list.
Of all the environmental hazards that gold mining presents, the mining industry and environmentalists agree that acid mine drainage (AMD) is by far
the most serious."
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2001/109-10/focus.html
7 MB pdf - read all about it:
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2001/109-10/EHP109pa474PDF.PDF
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tripledigitken
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AMD Solutions
The problem can be mitigated according to this link.
http://www.geoscience.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&am...
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k-rico
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Great! Sorta like putting the right chemicals in a septic tank.
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wessongroup
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If it were only that easy...
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
Great! Sorta like putting the right chemicals in a septic tank. |
Thanks k-rico, it helps point out the scope a bit better.. and was the issue I was referring too earlier
It is one thing to come up with a remedational technology, but the implementation on the scale we are talking about is the real problem.. would also
point out that this Company is making a living selling remediation of negatively impacted sites.
Met a guy a number of years back that had stumbled onto a shallow groundwater remediation technology for "solvents" specifically TCE, PCE and their
breakdown compounds .. He had run in to the solution in Canada..
His initial project was to clean up a very large area of contamination from years of industrial operations, which had impacted the soil and therefore
the groundwater and had a really large "plume" of solvents working there way off site and into the groundwater and ultimately into the water shed of
Niagara Falls.. what he found was amazing.. when the plume passed under a "auto wrecking yard, where complete shredding took place" the plume once on
the other side was no more.
Come to find out, that the FE (Iron) particles which were also contaminants in their own right were working their way down to the water also, but when
in contact with the solvents they were "breaking down" the molecules of the solvents into H2O..
He had done many studies all were positive, but the technology was limited in it's application due as it was limited to overall shallow water depth..
which is a limited type of application, in the world or remediation.
He did find a location which fit the bill.. Eastern Europe.. Shallow water and unbelievable contamination from years of illegal discharge by Industry
and the Russian Military..
It was quite simple to set up.. Just sink barriers to channel the water flow like "wire" or center point.. Then run the flow through FE shaving with
monitoring stations on the other side to insure effective treatment..
He ended up moving his whole Company to Poland and was quite successful there.. Here in the States.. EPA was not sure that they were happy with his
research, and the large remediation Companies and attorneys involved in remediation didn't like it, as it was cheap and easy, so they "dis" it.. And
it could not get off the ground here on the North American continent ...
Just one example of technology, and some problems you run into. And when you start talking about the WESTERN UNITED STATES.. You talking really big
remediation, and then your talking really big money which = POLITICS.. Which then means.... you guessed it... not much but money being spend with
little accomplished..
Think that is why many would just rather not see it start, as the end point is not pretty nor cheap to deal with..
One other thing, this is just from mining, there are other contaminates (radioactive) to name just one.. and they are all heading for the Pacific
Ocean via ground water and the rivers.. think all you have heard about Mercury in fish..
And the issues of monetary demand really don't enter into the discussion of site remediation.. other than from a real estate "value" stand point.. It
only gets Legs when it becomes a Public Health issue and has immediate threath to the Health of the Public .. like the people start getting sick ...
then there is some type of action.. to address the issue, kinda of like Katrina down in LA.. now don't you feel safe..
Good luck getting it back to where it was, worked on these vary issues for many years.. as have others here on the Nomads..
The understanding of wants vs needs is an issue which is coming at the world rather quickly, one way or the other it must be dealt with..
Really good subject, glad to have so many with views on same.. also glad the thread continues.. as the problems we must deal with do not go away
either
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by audiobaja
It would be helpful for your cause to present a mining engineer that can present the real dangers and what the chances of a problem are, what Vista
Gold's track record is, the type of technology to be used, the time it will take for the area to fully recover, etc, etc. Because I take an
'innocent until proven guilty' approach. "Bad-mouthing" isn't a valid argument.
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In Todos Santos two of the strongest critics of the mine are a geologist and a retired mining engineer.
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dtbushpilot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by audiobaja
Interesting stuff. I feel expertish now 
Still, a lot of the risk has to do with the environment and geology, so the risks are site specific.
But as the say, the *real* problem here is demand. With the price of gold at over $1000/ounce, it's coming out of the ground. Which means either
a), we need the economy to rebound and make buying gold seem silly and/or b) convince eco-hippy women to sell their gold and replace it with jewelry
that isn't environmentally risky.
If you recycle massive amounts of gold back into the system, you'll drop the demand and the price. Get it back to 2001 levels or even close and the
mine goes away.
Either way, as a guy who's entire collection of gold is in my super cheap wedding ring, I'm doing my part, while remaining out of the politics of it.
But if you're one of those folks with a whole bunch of jewelry and/or a portfolio with lots of gold in it, your part of the problem, not part of the
solution, no matter how many petitions you sign. And even if this mine is stopped, another will pop up somewhere else. Same reason that the
cartel problem in Mexico will exist until US either legalizes drugs or jails everyone with an appetite for it. |
Nice thought but not very realistic, kind like saying if we all drove our cars less the demand for gas would come down and the oil companies would
stop drilling wells.....
BYW, I want them to drill more so "let it snow, let it snow, let it snow"......
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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C-Urchin
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open pit gold mines
The EPA web site has all the info necessary, although a bit buried, about the tax payer money used to "clean up" or contain to perpetuity the super
fund sites.
In a lot of cases, more money than by the mining profits. More money than the temporary unsustainable jobs (payroll) they provide. Some sort of corp.
welfare?
We can always print more money 
http://epa.gov/superfund/
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David K
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But we can't turn iron (or anything else) into gold... Where do you propose we get gold from, if not in an area that has already been mined since the
1700's?
Seems to me to be better to continue mining in a mining region, than to dig up brand new areas to get the gold!??? How is that enviromentally
friendly?
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wessongroup
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David, don't think anyone was suggesting conversion of iron to gold.. nor that the mining of gold should be totally abandoned, rather that any mining
project should be undertaken with full disclosure of all factors evaluated that may pose health and/or environmental risk.. and to insure that the
measures outlined and adopted for a project would effective mitigate these risks to a reasonable and acceptable level, based on sound investigation
and review of same.
There are needs for minerals, among other materials, which are necessary to provide all with comfort and security, and it seems this issue was about
weather appropriate measures have been implemented in the design phase to insure no concerns would arise durning and/or after the operations conclude.
The balance of environmental concerns vs the use of resources is but one part of the story, the other is what to do with "issues" that are left upon
the termination of the "project".
A town with no tax base to provide for its infrastructure, ... used to call them "ghost towns".. kind of like some around here that took off on "real
estate" and now that is gone.. the doors are closing and windows boarding up.. not exactly the same, but the end results is about the same.
This is not my Country, but if by discussion of the down sides of mining operations might prevent some of the issues which exist in the United States
from less than prudent planning by Industry on the use of natural resources, what the big woof in sharing experience and knowledge with all??
It seems that all posts here are just to try and point up the problems associated with natural resources development, be it gold, real estate, tuna
pens..
I'm truly amazed at the depth of knowledge base that exists here on the Nomads.. from good booze, to sand craps, to expert photography, to maps about
lost Mission in the Baja..
To me it's all good, and hope we don't lose one thought on any issue.. it's all good.. Dennis putting up apologies to links to what's her name.. to
Woooosh going to a Press Conference in Rosarito....
This is better than any TV program.. and with no commercials.. it just doesn't get any better than this.. and for me.. I'm laid up from a bunch of
stuff, if I were not, I would be outside fishing, walking on the beach, taking pictures, too old and messed up to use a boogie board, or even a old
"long board" we used to used back in the early sixties.. hell digging clams if I could.. anything.. there is so much to do here, compared to the
States... Oh, there I go, I'm talking it up again.. no, no, no.. it's dangerous, you'll be shot, I've got a purple sore on my arm.. my hair is
starting to fall out.. DON'T COME TO BAJA.. you will die.. this place is great and all I think just want to take care of it.. I don't see people
throwing trash on the roads, or streets, not even cigarettes butts.. OOP's there I go again... no, it's filthy here, absolutely filthy have to wash 10
times a day.. it's God awful.. Oh, I wish I could go home.. oh, me oh my what can I do..
Just keep the gold dust out of your eyes.. and the yellow metal does seem to drive the Wasichus crazy!!
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tripledigitken
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wessongroup,
Why dismiss the link I posted because the technology was being promoted by a private company?
Governments may fund cleanups, but in my experience it's private contractors doing the cleanup. In many cases designing the technology to do it more
economically as well.
(By the way before you assume I am pro mining and damn the environmental consequences type, I was the one that brought up the fact that the copper
mine reopening in Santa Rosalia was absent any language on remediation.http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=43644 )
Ken
[Edited on 1-28-2010 by tripledigitken]
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wessongroup
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not so
| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
wessongroup,
Why dismiss the link I posted because the technology was being promoted by a private company?
Governments may fund cleanups, but in my experience it's private contractors doing the cleanup. In many cases designing the technology to do it more
economically as well.
(By the way before you assume I am pro mining and damn the environmental consequences type, I was the one that brought up the fact that the copper
mine reopening in Santa Rosalia was absent any language on remediation.http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=43644 )
Ken
[Edited on 1-28-2010 by tripledigitken] |
And Ken I left it open for someone to point out that glaring omission, and I also said "exactly" and thank you.
I did not dismiss the technology, only stated that is their business.. And I'm aware of your posts on this and other topics.. if you thought I was
dismissing your post and/or the technology, you are incorrect and I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave.. as I have stated repeatedly, I think
the contributions of all here are really quite unbelievable in the most positive way possible, it's all good information to help make sense out of a
difficult situation, providing food fiber, goods and service and not leaving a heavy foot print.
I do not assume anything, and would need to do very a very careful review of all data related to the Companies operations, before I would rule
something out entirely
Was only trying to show how there are so many difficulties with trying to develop a site specific plan to accomplish the task, and all the BS that
comes with trying to just clean it up.. it really does get ugly very quickly due to the amounts of money that are involved, in some cases these
Companies can do a number on the problem, in other cases the do a number on the money.. that's just the way it is in remediation..
And also the scope of the clean up is not usually a simple "put it in a bag and shake".. as the size of the Western United States will not fit into
just one bag.. and the problems to be managed on something this size it really a bit over over more than most folks can ever get close to
comprehending, at least to me.. even if we go back a step to Butte, MT.. they still can't deal with just that site and it is a defined location, with
defined parameters.. it just gets too big to treat, or the treatment technology will handle one or two aspects, but then you end up with three or four
more instead..
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tripledigitken
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Thanks for the clarification regarding the comment on the Remediation link.
Fact of the matter is there will be more gold mining activity with every dollar rise in the price of Gold. To think otherwise is wishfull thinking,
or to expect the price to tumble is as well.
Pushing the Governing Agencies granting operating permits to demand at least some remediation of the toxic aftermath is a desirable goal.
Ken
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wessongroup
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Truth be told, I gave up a long while back on trying to balance people vs environment.. (think I told Skeet's that one).. People win.. every time..
again, unless it becomes a HUGE human health issues and then there is some movement albeit very slow and is accompanied by train wreck you don't even
want to watch
Wiley
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tripledigitken
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wessongroup,
My world is filled with dealing with environmental mediation. Environment first other factors secondary is becoming the norm. Good thing, but comes
at a high price and slows projects down both in design and in construction.
I work in Heavy Highway Construction and we are required to incorporate more and more environmental measures into projects each year.
Desilting basins, fiber rolls, silt fences, haul off on Aerially Depostied Lead or onsite burial, sound walls to protect nesting birds in breeding
seasons, noise limits on equipment, just to mention a few. All of these measures we encounter on a daily basis.
Progress is being made in our industry to be a little kinder to the environment. So my take is a little less cynical about the future than yours it
seems.
Ken
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wessongroup
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Well Ken, we disagreed on some aspect apparently, as my wold was directly with the EPA/Major Oil Companies/and lastly the Financial Industry and the
issues I dealt with were associated with protection of the Environment and the Human Health of the people of the United States for over 40 years.
I have more than a casual acquaintance with the legislative process, Government Agencies and their individual bureaucracy. It was my job to integrate
programs with them all, and effect change, make it happen.
The view I have is anchored in actively participating in what has been happening from an Environmental and Human Health stand point for all of those
years, and when I see where we are today.. (57% increase in Autism in four years)... well our example of environmental failures are far greater than
the accomplishments, I could go on.. but, it would serve no purpose, as your frame of reference is quite different than mine.
Appears you have an agenda here, not me.. if you find difficultly with my experience, education, and conclusions based on my dealing with issues at
the: local, regional, national and international level concerning these issues.. well that is your own subjective view which you are entitled too ..
to state that I am cynical... well that agin is a call by you.. not others I have worked with and had working relations with over many years.
The progress we have made in road building, is not even close to the areas we have been discussing and the problems associated with road building
again are not really comparable to large scale mining operations and the legacy of toxic pits the size of the one given in Butte MT. or the
contamination of the North Western United States aquifer. And would add your Company most likely would not be doing it, if Federal funds did not have
strings attached to the bid process.. as those were the type of conditions "we" worked to impose on many industries to insure they did the RIGHT thing
when they got Federal, State and Local Highway funds.
As for no one mining gold, why do you make this statement, in my post above I clearly stated that mining is and will go on, as will road building,
farming and many other industries which have impacts on the environment, but provide comfort and security for our people.
Your world was shaped my me and others like me working for the past 40 plus years getting some degree of control over the situation.. if I appear less
than happy about where we are.. take a good look at the current levels of groundwater contamination in the United States of America.. not just from
heavy metals, and solvents, but agricultural chemicals, fertilizers, bio waste, coliform bacteria, the list goes on... and that is just the water..
My statement stands... If a decision must be made on who gets the nod, people or the environment.. the people will get the nod.. that is the way it
is ... that is the reality of the process in Washington D.C and the State Capitols where I worked to develop Laws and regulations governing the
subjects we discuss here, environmental controls to reduce the impact of the human species on it's environment.
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tripledigitken
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Wessongroup,
After 40 years of shaping my world I wish you had done a better job. What a comment to make. Do you think I'm 25?
I have an agenda, in that you are correct. It is to bring some balance from time to time to the one sided view so often posted here. But like so
many others currently you have to resort to a condecending attitude.
My statement of my experience and the improvements I have witnessed are just as valid as yours, albeit in another field. I never said my Company
would be doing Federal Government Remediation work as that is not our expertise by the way. I am more than causually aware the the bidding process in
Government work in that I have been doing that for 30 years!
My point is that there are some improvements in Environmental Issues in industry and construction, you know that. Those improvements can be a source
of motivation moving forward into other industries like mining.
Ken
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
But we can't turn iron (or anything else) into gold... Where do you propose we get gold from, if not in an area that has already been mined since the
1700's?
Seems to me to be better to continue mining in a mining region, than to dig up brand new areas to get the gold!??? How is that enviromentally
friendly? |
I agree with this but the area in question here is the watershed for a large population.
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wessongroup
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
Wessongroup,
After 40 years of shaping my world I wish you had done a better job. What a comment to make. Do you think I'm 25?
I have an agenda, in that you are correct. It is to bring some balance from time to time to the one sided view so often posted here. But like so
many others currently you have to resort to a condecending attitude.
My statement of my experience and the improvements I have witnessed are just as valid as yours, albeit in another field. I never said my Company
would be doing Federal Government Remediation work as that is not our expertise by the way. I am more than causually aware the the bidding process in
Government work in that I have been doing that for 30 years!
My point is that there are some improvements in Environmental Issues in industry and construction, you know that. Those improvements can be a source
of motivation moving forward into other industries like mining.
Ken |
Your age never came to mind rather your need to point out my assumed short comings and indirect implications of what my intent is/was/should be..
Validation would seem to have been your goal throughout out this thread else why the assumption that I "dismissed" YOUR link, as there was no mention
of that by me.
As for bidding, I would hope one would be acquainted with the process if your bidding road work, and I never implied nor stated that your company was
doing remediation, rather that your Company would have to comply with all requirements outlined in the bidding process (which would have environment
conditions, among others) that you would have to include in your bid if your Company wanted the work.
As to your statement about industries following in lock step on environmental issues based on motivation, never seen that one ever.. have seen
industry fight one another to insure they are playing on a level playing field, (meaning, that if one is having to do it, be it Fed-OSHA, E&O
Insurance, natural gas vehicles.. what ever).. they will make sure the other competitor is playing by the same rules, so they are not at a competitive
disadvantage... which is only good business sense.. but, it's not coming from a deep seated love for the environment in most cases, rather looking to
the bottom line.
I will agree there have been improvements made in the way Industry handles materials.. I worked on a project with the major Chemical Company's here in
the States a number of years ago.. we had been trying to get them to understand (Dow, Chevron, Monsanto, and many others who have production
facilities all over the States, that it was to their benefit not to lose material via the air, soil and water in the production process..for any
number of reasons. (this was two years before (Bhopal India) Another project I had worker on came to mind.. triple rinsing of pesticide containers..
to insure less materials would end up in water ways when farmers tossed the empties. We had had measured the amount of material saved by was the drums
out was roughly $213 per 50 gallon drum.. Well, when they thought about it, and put a pencil to it.. they (the companies) opted without any adoption
of Laws and regulation to completely refit all their facilities.. as they found by not polluting they would MAKE A LOT MORE MONEY..
That was the driver in every issues I worked on... Company's have share holders, and they expect a return.. so the Company is looking at one thing..
increase the amount of product sold every year... well, we you start looking at that on a National scale.. 18% more chemicals used every year, no
matter what.. well that is not good. and it is I'm sorry to say the way it is done.. the goal is more, and more and more...
Well, from my stand point, it will make it eventually impossible to deal with, due to scale again....
I understand people are doing better than they were 30, 40,50 years ago.. but, the scale of production has also been increased to where we have not
gotten ahead, but have fallen behind..
It's true the rivers are not catching fire anymore.. but I would again suggest, when almost all of the underground water in the United States has been
negatively impacted by industrial use.. and it is not getting better.. that is not good, no matter how much dressing one puts on the cake...
I'm sure you do an excellent job as does your Company.. I just have difficulty with the current understanding of the overall scope and degree which we
face here in the United States and other parts of the world..
We have some very serious economic issues coming at us.. that will only push the environmental issues to the side ... it seems quite obvious to me..
from a continuing theme here on the board about "jobs" in Mexico..
No one is saying they are for the people of Mexico starving.. rather they are saying don't let the people down here have something happen to them that
we have had happen to us..
One other thing, to my knowledge not one road project has resulted in a Super Fund Site.. perhaps a batch plant of the Company with tanks or leaching
ponds for what ever reason maybe.. but the road and it's by products. don't think so.. unless they used a soil sterilant on 200 miles of road side an
then had to pull it up and it became hazardous wast..
Lastly, over all the balance seemed to be if any thing very liberal towards saving the environment..here on the board, had heard everyone here was a
red neck.. I have not found that true at all.. everyone here including yourself seems to have an honest and healthy respect for the environment and
actively strives to improve things...
I just try and add in a bit of crap I have picked up along the way, about Business, Government and Politics .. and so far I have really tried to say
as in the middle as possible.. this is the first time I talk directly about work.. sorry as I would rather not.. I don't enjoy the process as much as
I did when I was 26.. to many battles and scars, like I have said I'm retired.. will get off my soap box and let the young ones take over.. I'm
waiting for 2012 myself, with a case of Pacifico and a bunch of tamales, looking at the ocean, and playing a guitar..
The Super Fund Sites will still be there long after I'm dead.. or what ever they will call them in another 40 years..
When I use a time period, it is to demonstrate the comparative changes one sees in lets just say 44 years.. they are substantial, some good, but in so
many cases it not so good..
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
But we can't turn iron (or anything else) into gold... Where do you propose we get gold from, if not in an area that has already been mined since the
1700's?
Seems to me to be better to continue mining in a mining region, than to dig up brand new areas to get the gold!??? How is that enviromentally
friendly? |
I agree with this but the area in question here is the watershed for a large population.
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Are you sure? The topo map shows the arroyo coming down from the region is over 5 miles north of Todos Santos... and are not new mines better than all
the old mines that are in that same area... have any ranchers or animals been poisoned over the past 240 years downstream of those mines? Is there a
reason for the hysteria or is this stuff just being made up to serve the desires of a certain special interest group that is fueling the hysteria?
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k-rico
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Seems that the state Government is also opposed to the mine.
Rechaza PRD el proyecto minero de Paredones Amarillos: Chávez
El Sudcaliforniano
13 de enero de 2010
Miguel Rubio
La Paz, Baja California Sur.- Lejos de traer beneficios para el estado de Baja California Sur la explotación de las minas de "Paredones Amarrillos",
de la zona de La Laguna, acarrearía más perjuicios, pues con estos trabajos se contaminarían los mantos freáticos de los municipios de La Paz y Los
Cabos, además provocarían graves daños ecológicos al entorno, afirmó ayer el dirigente estatal del PRD, Adrián Chávez.
En ese sentido, en la habitual rueda de prensa de cada martes, el presidente del Comité Ejecutivo Estatal del Partido de la Revolución Democrática,
hizo un llamado a los legisladores locales para que tomen cartas en este asunto y al gobierno federal a que revise el otorgamiento del permiso de
explotación comercial de oro en esta zona.
Acompañado por el secretario general, Julio César Castro Pérez, por el secretario de Organización, Israel Gastélum, por el secretario de Derechos
Humanos y Justicia, Gilberto Gerardo, y por el secretario de Educación y Cultura, Flavio Ramos Cota, el dirigente Chávez Ruiz, explicó que en el
decreto de creación del área natural protegida se establecía una zona de amortiguamiento a partir de la cual pudieran realizar actividades no de alto
impacto para el medio ambiente, y en ese sentido, la industria minera, desde la perspectiva del PRD, no pueden calificarse como de bajo impacto, sino
lo contrario de alto impacto y depredatoria, que pone en riesgo la ecología y el agua que sale de los mantos freáticos, tanto de Los Cabos como de La
Paz.
No obstante de lo anterior, el presidente Adrián Chávez Ruiz, dijo que su partido está consciente que el desarrollo para Baja California Sur es
importante y necesario en este contexto de crisis económica, pero que los principales recursos derivados de la explotación de los hábitat naturales y
del turismo, es toda una industria que no puede pasar por la destrucción o el impacto de una área natural protegida, como lo que está pretendiendo
hacer, por lo que consideró necesario que se haga una consulta entre los afectados para ver si están de acuerdo que se hagan estos trabajos de
explotación de la minera de "Paredones Amarillos", al afirmar que de entrada el PRD se opone a esta explotación por considerarla depredadora del
ecosistema.
http://www.oem.com.mx/elsudcaliforniano/notas/n1476646.htm
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