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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
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I'm sorry Hearld (4x4) I assumed everyone knew I was talking about Roy (squarecircle). Roy is a master explorer who loves a good adventure thru Baja.
He has a friend, Richard, who I swear is related to Daniel Boone with his trail searching abilities.
Hopefully you and I can get together for a Baja adventure in the near future. This weekend Bajacat and I and a few other Nomads will be in San Felipe
exploring some canyons and other trails. It should be a lot of fun.
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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The way I do things in Baja is, if there is a road that 'ends' due to erosion with the road appearing past the field of debris, I attempt to travel on
that route to reach my destination. If a trail is blocked due to boulders, I try to move those boulders *before* driving off the trail and around the
boulder. This creates additional erosion and becomes problematic in the long-term.
Simply driving on virgin soil (in the desert) depleats the top layer of soil and it takes 99 years to return to its' natural state. Therefore, I try
to *hike* only on paths and not walk out wherever I feel like it.
Treading lightly goes for hiking as well as 4wd travel. 
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64615
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Right... Baja has plenty of roads and we don't go out and make new ones. Grab a Baja Almanac or search Google Earth and find a road to explore!
The term 'Off Road' means off pavement or off highway...
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Right... Baja has plenty of roads and we don't go out and make new ones. Grab a Baja Almanac or search Google Earth and find a road to explore!
The term 'Off Road' means off pavement or off highway... |
So many 'Green' persons do not understand this, David. Of all of the blown BFGoodrich tires caused by traveling on established dirt roads, if it were
over creosote and ocotillo, that number would jump exponentially!
Look what happened to this unfortunate 'Off Roader' 
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
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Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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Quote taken from Walt Peterson's "Baja Adventure Book"
"The term "Off-road" is misleading, for other than driving on beaches, dry lakes, and similar special situations, there is no "off-road" driving in
Baja, nor should there be. Driving across untracked desert creates environmental havoc, tearing up slow-growing desert vegetation and leaving scars
that endure for generations. Such driving is almost always unnecessary, since unpaved roads will usually be found to take you anywhere you want to
go. In addition, it can often result in severe tire damage within a few miles, and even the fabled Baja 1,000 racers wouldn't go a mile if the race
were truly off-road. Thus, although the term "off-road" is used throughout this book, keep in mind that what is meant is off-pavement driving."
Walt Peterson - Baja Adventure Book pp. 62-63. Wilderness Press, Berkeley, CA. 1992.
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Baja12valve
Nomad
Posts: 185
Registered: 7-12-2006
Location: Oak View
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As a potential "like minded person" where and when is your next trip? I don't see anything in this thread. Thanks.
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racheldarlin
Junior Nomad
Posts: 69
Registered: 9-30-2010
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I tried to walk out of this "bar brawl" gracefully but alas!
Peterson's book is a general guide to adventuring in Baja. He does not hold himself out to be an avid fan or proponent of offroading. His definition
is "his" definition and he, in fact, adds the qualification "in this book." Do you think he would consider the Rubicon Trail not really offroad? Or
Moab Devils Bowl?
As far as the label green you keep trying to pin on me - I totally reject Petersons argument about driving on virgin desert as environmental nonsense
and I will cut down an entire forest for a rational purpose. No, the motto Tread Lightly does not mean don't Tread at all. What it does mean is leave
your damn chain saws, shovels, picks, and backhoes at home. If your adventure fails because your don't have these things then it should fail. Frankly,
I did not see anything in TWs photos that a stock Jeep, Toyota 4by, etc with a competent driver couldn't handle.
Finally, don't keep coming up with these "straw man" arguments to justify what you do. Do it - but don't expect everyone to applaud or stay silent.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by racheldarlin
I tried to walk out of this "bar brawl" gracefully but alas!
Peterson's book is a general guide to adventuring in Baja. He does not hold himself out to be an avid fan or proponent of offroading. His definition
is "his" definition and he, in fact, adds the qualification "in this book." Do you think he would consider the Rubicon Trail not really offroad? Or
Moab Devils Bowl?
As far as the label green you keep trying to pin on me - I totally reject Petersons argument about driving on virgin desert as environmental nonsense
and I will cut down an entire forest for a rational purpose. No, the motto Tread Lightly does not mean don't Tread at all. What it does mean is leave
your damn chain saws, shovels, picks, and backhoes at home. If your adventure fails because your don't have these things then it should fail. Frankly,
I did not see anything in TWs photos that a stock Jeep, Toyota 4by, etc with a competent driver couldn't handle.
Finally, don't keep coming up with these "straw man" arguments to justify what you do. Do it - but don't expect everyone to applaud or stay silent.
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Rachel darlin--------Me thinks you are chasing wind mills--------we ALL generally agree with you. I would point out tho, as one of the authors of
TREAD LIGHTLY in that I was with BLM for years as a Recreation Specialist in the CA desert, that you are over-interpreting the TREAD LIGHTLY program
somewhat-------the programs touts the obvious, in that it just encourages you to act responsibly when using the Public Lands, and we ALL know
generally what that means-----it never intended the non-use of shovels, etc. when used appropriately. It just encourages folks to not abuse the land
indescriminately, that's all, which is what everybody here is saying and agrees with, it seems to me. You may choose to personally interpret the
program more narrowly, but that narrow interpretation was NOT it's intention when formulated. I know because I was there.
Nothing described in this thread goes against TREAD LIGHTLY, as far as I am concerned, and I was responsible for enforcing the law on those matters,
tho admittantly quite a long time ago.
And by the way, the Rubicon Trail is a legal and sanctioned trail, and it's use by vehicles is appropriate, from a legal point of view. Not familiar
with your Moab one, tho.
Barry
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racheldarlin
Junior Nomad
Posts: 69
Registered: 9-30-2010
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Barry, let me try this approach. My problem with this thread is not that I think TW or anyone that he hangs with is irreparably harming the
environment or wants to. My problem is that the photos posted give a false impression of what off-roading is all about. As we all know perception can
become reality. True wacko environmentalists see this stuff and soon you have entire areas shut down to anything but foot traffic.
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racheldarlin
Junior Nomad
Posts: 69
Registered: 9-30-2010
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PS
Perhaps I am being unnecessary purist but I've had to defend off-roading too many times in my 67 seven years to not be sensitive to any presentations
that could be used to assault it.
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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| Quote: | Originally posted by racheldarlin
PS
Perhaps I am being unnecessary purist but I've had to defend off-roading too many times in my 67 seven years to not be sensitive to any presentations
that could be used to assault it. |
I also had to defend the Off-road sport over the years, primarily to people who already had made up their minds that they did not like this sport.
I was asked by close friends of my ex-wife how I felt about the "Baja 1000 Races" and how they fostered positive feelings among people from both
Mexico and the United States? I already knew that when they asked how I felt "Politically" about the 'Baja 1000', that they had been reading
literature by the Sierra Club or Wilderness Coalition, etc. The husband drove a gutless 2wd Toyota p/u, and the wife drove a Volvo wagon. Needless
to say, after driving this pickup, I vowed never to own one myself.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by racheldarlin
Barry, let me try this approach. My problem with this thread is not that I think TW or anyone that he hangs with is irreparably harming the
environment or wants to. My problem is that the photos posted give a false impression of what off-roading is all about. As we all know perception can
become reality. True wacko environmentalists see this stuff and soon you have entire areas shut down to anything but foot traffic.
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Hmmmmmmmmm, interesting take. Tho you may be right, "environmental wackos" are just that------wackos--------and I, for one, refuse to be influenced
by what wackos "may" perceive just to possibly avoid offending them. That would be taking PC to the extreme limits, it seems to me, and that just
leads to more PC behavior to the detriment of the main-stream point of view and understanding of what is really happening and normal thoughts. I hate
PC'ness------it is just so distorting and condesending, and really fouls up communication. Little can be solved if we don't say what we mean.
But, I understand your point-------- we probably should 'agree to disagree' as neither one of us is getting anywhere, I suspect.
Happy Valentines Day. Peace and Love. 
Barry
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racheldarlin
Junior Nomad
Posts: 69
Registered: 9-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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Ken and Barry,
'Nuff said. Beers for all - on me. I'm off for 5 days into the wilds. Take care.
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marv sherrill
Nomad
Posts: 456
Registered: 11-18-2003
Member Is Offline
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Boy never skip from page 1 to page 4 on this thread - one can get lost easily - like taking a wrong turn off! But, of course, you can always just go
the opposite way...
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
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I'm confused just trying to understand how climbing waterfalls in a 4x4 is OK but rebuilding an existing road is not OK.
I do wonder where you go Rachel when in Baja. I mean do you go to Mike's Sky Rancho? Do you visit the various remote missions? Do you travel the
coastal areas? Do you stay on existing roads only or try and find that cool waterfall?
Actually I do know of one near the Pole LIne Rd close to Basketball Ball Hill.
On Ken's next trip you could come along and we could get a better ideal of your rock climbing abilities and techniques, maybe some of Ken's Jeep
buddies would join in, I've seen them crawl over giant rocks. I mean this in a sincere effort to bridge the gap amoung us.
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4x4abc
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4220
Registered: 4-24-2009
Location: La Paz, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy - always
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Interesting discussion!
Glad you mentioned the Rubicon Trail. It has been my summer workplace since 1987. Every day.
Its a county right of way that anyone can use. Few restrictions. And yes, after the winter snow no driver would venture out there without carrying a
chain saw (and they are used extensively). The trail has deteriorated so badly over the years exactly because drivers do not fill in a few rocks but
instead use brute force to overcome obstacles. And spinning tires create more erosion. That's definitely not treading lightly.
Since erosion has created a roadbed that is several feet below where it was 50 years ago, DOT was forced to step in. With chains saws, shovels, picks
and front loaders. Trail maintenance. The government version.
See pictures below (its not how you remembered the Rubicon)
[Edited on 2-15-2011 by 4x4abc]
Harald Pietschmann
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Ducks
Newbie
Posts: 8
Registered: 3-5-2007
Location: Tigard, OR
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bipolar with a hint of ADD
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Hey Harald,
Just saw this thread. I absolutely must join you on one of your extreme adventures. But my plans for Baja aren't until December. If you are still
doing it then, I'd love to come along. It looks amazing.
Chad
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TheBajaKid
Junior Nomad
Posts: 80
Registered: 1-27-2011
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Cooke
"The term "Off-road" is misleading, for other than driving on beaches, dry lakes, and similar special situations, there is no "off-road" driving in
Baja, nor should there be. Driving across untracked desert creates environmental havoc, tearing up slow-growing desert vegetation and leaving scars
that endure for generations. Such driving is almost always unnecessary, since unpaved roads will usually be found to take you anywhere you want to
go. In addition, it can often result in severe tire damage within a few miles, and even the fabled Baja 1,000 racers wouldn't go a mile if the race
were truly off-road. Thus, although the term "off-road" is used throughout this book, keep in mind that what is meant is off-pavement driving."
Walt Peterson - Baja Adventure Book pp. 62-63. Wilderness Press, Berkeley, CA. 1992. |
Hey Ken Your wrong and so is your buddy Walt.
The 1000 is mapped out as a course with check points.
Many racers take "shortcuts" or blaze there own trail/road.
A big part of prerunning is finding areas that you can make your own path through the desert, to get to the next check point faster.
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4x4abc
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4220
Registered: 4-24-2009
Location: La Paz, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy - always
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yes, racers used to take shortcuts - today every participant carries a mandatory SPOT device (since 2008). The entire world can now witness on the
internet if a driver would take a shortcut. So, the time of shortcuts is over.
Harald Pietschmann
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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--------and that statement by the BajaKid just might be another nail in the coffin of the Baja 1000.
Good Grief!!!!
Barry
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