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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
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Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
Ken I think your 4 wheel drive buddies missed the point. It isn't about being Mexican. The point is they could have been a club from Denver or
Bakersfield and they were disrespectfull to the property owner. |
The point everyone seems to be missing, is that these 4 Wheelers feel disrepected by the remarks about 'THE MEXICANS'. This along with a foreign land
owner raises HISTORICAL IMPLICATIONS that make the issue at hand a challenging one for discussion.
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
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Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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| Quote: | Originally posted by soulpatch
Racism, ignorance and an unwillingness to view something objectively are, clearly, not defined by nationality or skin color. |
If I were reading material that contained disparaging remarks about AFRICAN AMERICANS, I would want to first address the tone of the information
before dissecting the information. Think about it.
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
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Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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| Quote: | Originally posted by astrobaja
So sorry to inconvenience you Jim, but we LIVE here, 100% of the time. We don't want growers coming through and deal with all the trash and pulling
drunk Mexican off roaders out of the ditch cause they can hardly see.
And when we go away anybody can just drive up and steal what they want? |
I believe this is the quote that made so many of the guys from the Jeep club so upset/angry. Read this over, and you decide.
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
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Mood: beam me up
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Ken, please 1st off thanks for the effort in trying to create a dialogue! Although really its so so difficult to do such a thing over the internet so
much intent gets miscommunicated (anyone being on Nomads has seen this all too often!!!)
I understand how my remark of "Mexican" as a blanket statement could be interperted a racist, BUT if they read my subsequent posts they would notice
that I talk about the good Mexican clubs too, such as the Cameleones. Personally I don't even believe in the whole concept of "race" there are
different cultures but as for race we are all one race, homo sapiens sapiens.
When that particular club arrived that afternoon we got some pretty nasty comments hurled our way too, stuff like go back to America (even though we
are not American) you don't have rights here, you are estranjeros, etc.
Not too nice considereing it was just me and my Wife Pamela here against 50-60 people some of whom were pretty drunk.
Hell if you want to argue whos "land" it really was it the Kiliwa, Pai Pai and Cochimis, everybody else is just here due to aggresive colonialism!!
Considering how poorly they acted up in the park (going into restricted areas, littering , urinating in front of the park office, being beligerent
with the park staff, etc) this particlar club should consider themselves persona non grata from now on. The other more responsible clubs should be
angry at their behavior and how it gives the rest a bad name.
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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Hook
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9006
Registered: 3-13-2004
Location: Sonora
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Mood: Inquisitive
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Can someone clarify? Was this a publicly used road for many years that ran through property that Astrobaja then purchased and then decided to put a
gate across the road? Or is the road wholly within his property? Is there an entitiy that has de facto "ownership" of dirt roads in Mexico?
Just because someone owns acreage on both sides of a publicly used road doesnt necessarily mean they can control the road. I'm not saying that's the
case, here. I dont know. But if the road has been a recognized public right-of-way road for many years, that right should continue.
Yes, it's unfortunate that the road might occasionally bring a bad element. All roads do that. But that doesnt give those residing along the road the
"right" to close a road with a public right-of-way.
Astrobaja, curious about your likening this to someone having right of way through one's house. How far is this road from your living quarters? How
much acreage do you have? Dont you have a secondary gate between this road and your house?
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
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Mood: beam me up
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Hi Hook,
There are 2 properties that overlay this small (probably 10km in length) section of road. The one which starts at the observatory road belongs to
Soren Meling, Rancho La Joya (the way its been historically spelled) which is quite a large ranch around 3000-4000 acres. And ours rancho la
Concepcion which is 1200 arces. The small section of the road which joins with the road that leads to R. Coyote and Mikes is probably Ejido Tepi.
We have talked to the Park director and the Military both seem to agree that this road is only a camino vecinal fro us and of course Soren Meling who
has a key to the front gate (which the group from Mexicali broke, its totally bent).
In addition this section of road does not appear on any offical topo map.
When we bought the land from David Lang (Rancho Meling) he had the front gate locked and from time befre that we understand both Aida and Duane Meling
had the road closed from time to time. Although we don't know how that was enforced.
Hope that somewhat clarifies things...
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
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Mood: beam me up
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Whoops forgot your question about how far the road is from our house. It passes about 80 feet from the house. We have 3 gates one from the north
(Mikes) one at the little casita right by the main house and one by the main observatory road.
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64612
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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If you examine the maps I have posted, you can see that as recent as 2003, the road from Astro's place to the Observatory road is not shown... i.e. it
is a 'new' road.
Before Astro (Mike) bought the land, the road was pushed through from Rancho Concepcion (now Baja Dark Skies Inn) to the Observatory road and the
previous owner gave SCORE permission to use it for a Baja race.
It seems that if the above is true then it can hardly be considered 'grandfathered' as a right-of-way to the public. Remember it was the bad behavior
by a 4WD club and marijuana farmers that caused AstroBaja to put up the gates in the first place. If people would be respectful then this road may
have been left open. He certainly goes beyond the ordinary by opening the gate if he is asked to by the other 4wd and m/c clubs.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64612
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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One should be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character... someone once said (yes, Dr. King)...
The Mexicali club members were judged by how they acted, not by their race Ken... If they behaved as other 4WD clubs have, then astrobaja would not
even be writing negatively about them. That he added 'Mexican' was important because it is their country, and as often as some like to label Americans
as being 'ugly' tourists and disrespectful of the locals or land, it was Mexicans in Mexico who were.
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
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Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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The comments keep coming in...
......well, his comment was more about " MÉXICANS" i sense a lot RACISM in his words and bragging about how his wife broke somebody's window i téll
you what if that was my car it would've end up pretty bad for him anyways he can do wherever he wants and we can do werever we want right, men why
can't we all just get along
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In da words of Dave chappele "white power" hahaha!!! i read that whole article & have to agree on both sides I've gone on that route before &
hope to go on it again!!! But don't get me wrong #itch comes at me with that shovel I'll ########. Now can We all Just off road along !!! My 2
pesos  -
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I'm not racist I hate you all the same "middlefinger" jajajaja
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And by doing that, you dont discriminate anyone, lol...
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
Member Is Offline
Mood: beam me up
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Wow never been called a racist before.... Listen you don't really know me at all Ken, and I don't know you so lets not go making heavy handed
jugements about each others moral character, ok?
I think if any of my friends saw your post (and they come from lots of different cultures) they would get a chuckle!
Just to set the record straight my Wife (who btw is NOT a #itch) did not break the window. I was not bragging I was just stating what happened.
That group did break the law, and the act of breaking the front gate was a delito mayor. I don't feel that we have to morally justify our actions,
they broke the law 1st. But like I said before you could tell that some were visibly uncomfortable with what they were doing, they were being swept
along by mob mentality of a few of the blowhards.
But all of this peeing around on the internet is going nowhere it seems, if a few of the club leaders want to meet with us and discuss in person we're
fine with that! We're actually open to talk whereas a LOT of ranchers we know are not!
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
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Mood: beam me up
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Sorry ken I know its not you saying these things but it seems you are intimating it too. I just find it irritating that they jump to the "white"
power, racism conclusion instead of addressing the much more real issue of breaking the law in pursuit of their "hobby"
It seems to just be a way of deflecting responsiblilty for the act of trespassing and intimidation.
[Edited on 2-25-2012 by astrobaja]
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13039
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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I'm sure if the culprits were a canadian off road club, astrobaja would have said a bunch of drunk canadians...funny, it doesnt seem racist if you're
talking about honkeys eh?? why is that?
I"m glad there may be some face to face dialogue to resolve this issue...hang in there star gazers.
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Cooke
If I were reading material that contained disparaging remarks about AFRICAN AMERICANS, I would want to first address the tone of the information
before dissecting the information. Think about it. |
So you're saying that you're one of those "get peeed first and ask questions later" kind of african americans ?
Think about it your own bad self.
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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6741
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
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Whoa !! The race card should never been played here. I believe mentioning where this rouge group came from was in hopes that interested others could
spread the word that this area club was undesirable. astrobaja also mentioned drunks and that was the point. I think most of us have had dealings with
drunks and know there is no reasoning with them. And dealing with a group of drunks on a mission would be terrorizing given the circumstances. Just my
2¢
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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It seems quite unfortunate that the idea of "race" came into this problem. JMHO, but I don't see astrobaja as distinguishing between ethic groups in
trying to work out a difficult situation.
Perhaps some of the readers of his posts can be considered a bit hypersensitive, but perhaps that is also a bit justified for a couple of reasons.
1. There is an increase in anti-Mexican sentiment in the US because of the immigration issues----some of this is not just on personal levels, but on
legal levels with laws passed aimed toward the Mexicans. Yes, astrobaja is Canadian, but that in many minds is a subtle difference, and the Canadians
are not the targets of the anti-immigration sentiments and laws.
2. There are many, many US citizens and Canadians who either live full or part time in Mexico, or visit Mexico who don't really like the Mexicans
unless the Mexicans are cleaning their houses or serving their food. And as several of our friends have shared with us, many Mexicans very much
resent the arrogant attitudes of these immigrants and visitors that somehow they know how to do things better and that their so called "race" is
superior. These attitudes are often displayed on this forum.
Thus while astrobaja's problem is a very specific problem and I hope the discussions work to solve the problem in very positive ways, and while I
believe astrobaja would have been just as upset no matter where that particular club came from, IMHO, I believe he has been caught up in the middle of
a much deeper problem.
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astrobaja
Senior Nomad
Posts: 952
Registered: 5-22-2006
Location: near San Pedro Martir Park
Member Is Offline
Mood: beam me up
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Shari is that honkeys or hockeys? But sure we all know there "malandros"
in every culture.
Thanks guys and gals for the vote of confidence, it means a lot!!
Word of the incident must be trickling down to other clubs, the Pasaditos another northern Baja group has put out word (from their Pres Dr. Mendrano)
to the members to please not drink excessively and please respect property lines and to be cordial to locals. For that we salute them!!
Mike and Pamela
\"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.There is another theory which states that this has already happened\"
Douglas Adams
our website: http://bajadarkskies.com |
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motoged
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6481
Registered: 7-31-2006
Location: Kamloops, BC
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gettin' Better
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
I'm sure if the culprits were a canadian off road club, astrobaja would have said a bunch of drunk canadians... |
Shari,
So....if we are sitting behind Juan's Wall and having a few c-cktails in the sun and out of the wind (say, it's at least 10:30 AM) and we lose track
of our drink count....do I call you a drunk Canuck or a borracha Mexicana????
Don't believe everything you think....
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13039
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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hahahaha Ged...or in spanish...jejejejeje...whatever tickles your fancy!
People have told me I have 2 different personalities depending on which language I am speaking...in spanish, I gesture more, am more animated and my
voice goes up an octave...and I drink Tecate instead of Blue...weird eh.
Astros...living in Mexico is not for the faint of heart or spirit. One encounters these problemas often and they are not fun to deal with. Be firm,
patient, kind and creative and solutions will come eventually.
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8923
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
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Mood: Its Pole Line Road time
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AstroBaja,
I simply posted comments from others. These are not my comments - I tried to create a healthy dialogue, but it devolved into comments about race
and violence. End of comment posting from that particular club.
I do believe that the problem should be stated in more DIPLOMATIC terminology in order to AVOID this sort of conversation.
I tried to, "Get the word out" among 4WD club members, and this is what I got. But, I do not speak in terms of violence or race, just trying to
stay on-topic for the purpose of hopefully keeping a route available to persons like myself with a love for Baja and this region near the Observatory
and Sierra San Pedro Martir Park.
In fact, I have made friends with some of the park employees and local residents as you can see in these photos.
In short, I am not calling you a RASICT and if I was to find fault with your terminology, I would use more FOCUSED language with you. Relax.
SSPM Park Employee Emigdio Salgado Chacon
Me pictured near my friend Andrew Simpkins (RIP) and a team of guys helping to repair DESERTBULL'S damaged trailer.
| Quote: | Originally posted by astrobaja
Wow never been called a racist before.... Listen you don't really know me at all Ken, and I don't know you so lets not go making heavy handed
jugements about each others moral character, ok?
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[Edited on 2-25-2012 by Ken Cooke]
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