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bajalou
Ultra Nomad
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I believe Taco de Baja is pointing out that there is a great deal of respected scientific opinion that disagrees with the popularly pushed ideas that
man is the major cause of climate change. And of course, if researchers don't get the correct answer sought by the funding source, no more research
grants.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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David K
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and if Algore doesn't sell enough movies he won't have the money to buy all the 'carbon offsets' needed to heat his huge homes or fly all over in
private jets!  Most import is the attention Algore needs from his false 'science' scaring people! :moon:
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
Good grief, so you can do a massive review of scientific records to justify the view that global warming is NOT man caused. But I would not be
surprised if someone could do a review and come up with an equal number of reports and statements from reputable scientists claiming warming IS man
caused.
Two Options:
Gather documents supporting each side, and weigh them with a balance scale. Heavier side wins! |
Science by consensus is not science.
Science is about coming up with a theory and testing it using scientific methods. Not seeing which side killed more trees by weighing all the papers
they wrote.
Al Gore saying "The debate on Man-caused-global-warming, is over" makes about as much sense as Bush saying, "The war is over."
Scientific theory used to believe that mountains and valleys on earth were formed by a cooling planet, much like a potato skin becoming wrinkled on a
cooling baked potato.
Scientific theory used to believe the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, you caught polio in swimming pools, and ulcers were caused by
spicy foods......
All these theories, and many more, were believed by a majority of scientists at some time. Luckily some fool did not stand up and say "The debate is
over."
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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Don Alley
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Posts: 1997
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Science by consensus is not science.
Science is about coming up with a theory and testing it using scientific methods. Not seeing which side killed more trees by weighing all the papers
they wrote.
Al Gore saying "The debate on Man-caused-global-warming, is over" makes about as much sense as Bush saying, "The war is over."
Scientific theory used to believe that mountains and valleys on earth were formed by a cooling planet, much like a potato skin becoming wrinkled on a
cooling baked potato.
Scientific theory used to believe the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, you caught polio in swimming pools, and ulcers were caused by
spicy foods......
All these theories, and many more, were believed by a majority of scientists at some time. Luckily some fool did not stand up and say "The debate is
over." |
Agreed.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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| Quote: | Science by consensus is not science.
Science is about coming up with a theory and testing it using scientific methods. Not seeing which side killed more trees by weighing all the papers
they wrote.
Al Gore saying "The debate on Man-caused-global-warming, is over" makes about as much sense as Bush saying, "The war is over."
Scientific theory used to believe that mountains and valleys on earth were formed by a cooling planet, much like a potato skin becoming wrinkled on a
cooling baked potato.
Scientific theory used to believe the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, you caught polio in swimming pools, and ulcers were caused by
spicy foods......
All these theories, and many more, were believed by a majority of scientists at some time. Luckily some fool did not stand up and say "The debate is
over." |
Agreed here too.
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Osprey
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Count me in as a bona fide "round earther". Sign me up for membership in the Taco de Baja Institute of level-headed thinking. Taco, thanks for the
hard work, the research, the posts. I was about to go into my stranded beach coral rant but you laid it out so well it was redundant. I'd like you
by my side the very next time I have another argument with anyone who says things travel faster then light.
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Packoderm
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I was agreeing with his last post about the parameters of science. I don't think he actually changed anybody's mind about global warming in general.
As for his research, I'll have to do some research and follow the money to see if those scientists are indeed legit.
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Cypress
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Taco de Baja! In full agreement with your post.
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Skipjack Joe
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Yes, Taco I agree with your post. Why didn't I think of those points?
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajadogs
Thanks Taco for the opinion of the weatherman.
I don't know about you but I hate being lied to.
The whole "solar activity" argument is not only outdated and selective, it's factually incorrect - intentionally misleading. That's pretty dang
offensive to me.
Here is a professor who debunks the original propaganda piece in a logical way -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656640542976216573...
oh... be nice to me today. im 40 |
I dislike being lied to as well.
So, I am interested in your link, but your link is broken so I can not see how your prof explains how variations in solar activity have no effect on
the temperatures on Earth. As far as being outdated, there are article about solar activity and correlation to temps less than a year old....Also,
logic seems to say solar variations will have an effect......But logic also can say that the sun goes around the earth, the earth is flat, and planes
shouldn't be able to fly..... 
Can you provide another link or a text of his speech?
Thanks
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64746
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Thanks again Taco de Baja... I will follow you in any march aginst the lies that Algore tells!
Viva Logic, truth, and mankind!  
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
Posts: 1064
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Respectfully DavidK, Taco,
"Lies that Algore tells!" -DK quote
Please disprove Al Gore. I have not seen where he has lied. I think you are just repeating "hate radio jargon"
Taco,
The link works for me. While it's old school and a bit boring it is clear that the original film was hell-bent on misrepresenting the facts.
Viva logic, truth and ...Dog Dam I hate being lied to!!!! The video which spawned this thread is embarrassing propaganda. Lots of people fell for it.
Nobody else see's that?
hello?
Taco, I'm truly trying to be civil here. I hope you can catch the video. BTW, he is not my prof. I finished college a long time ago.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656640542976216573...
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
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Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Conventional wisdom and/or theory
You choose.
"I'd like you by my side the very next time I have another argument with anyone who says things travel faster then light."
Now there's a subject! Without using an open mind and using conventional theory you are absolutely right.
Would you be willing to debate that with my 25 yr old son? I think he could offer up some newfound material that could OPEN some eyes. I am not
qualified to debate such a profound theory, he is. With that said would it be useless to try to convince a person so tied to a theory that maybe there
is an alternative to conventional wisdom? Perhaps proof. Is your mind really made up?
How can positively endorse any theory? Now you've got my attention. Simple wisdom tells me that theory is just that, theory, not fact. The same
holds true with this subject from the standpoint that we really don't know all the facts about how the sun plus all the other ingredients make up and
affect planetary climate(s). To state that we do would be sticking yer neck out. Ya gotta prove it. Not an easy task eh?
Hmmmmm, I wouldn't be so darn sure that these things cannot be proven or dispelled. Maybe you are one up on Einstein. After all, he's been proven
wrong before.
Taco, you've got a good grasp of the right side of the equation. Now, try the left side. It supposedly performs useful tasks and contributes greatly
to figuring out complex scenarios. Perhaps the left and the right could somehow organize to work together intelligently and
harmoniously........naw..... just a thought. Just another theory.
I'll say one thing. Folks passionate enough to delve so deeply must consider all things left and right. The issue of our existance may or may not be
a part of the global climate trend. For our own friggin' good we better sort it out in an adult fashion. I ain't talkin' bout Nomads sorting it out
here.
But...
Why does this topic have to be so partisan? Because of Gore? Hell I haven't even seen the flick but I have personal concerns. Especially for those
who live in big cities. If Gores' mission is to help slow the amount of pollution not just C02 that enters our atmosphere then I'm for it. To say
it's ok to burn petrocarbons till their exhausted is dangerous and narrow-minded.
[Edited on 4-12-2007 by Sharksbaja]
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
Posts: 1064
Registered: 8-28-2006
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sorry dudes if the link is dead -
throw these words into google -
warming swindle debunk
You will find the presentation I was talking about.
Stop being lied to!
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Sharks, your son and I would not get very far in the debate thing. I would admit I know very little (almost nothing), have no formal training -- then
we would agree on Planck's Constant and other things that get in the way of measuring stuff, then we'd shake hands and be friends, each guarding his
prior beliefs but respecting the rights of the other to see things another way. I am just so overwhelmed, awestruck, humbled by the weight and
history of all the scientists and sciences --- the pyrimid of scientific knowledge put in place one agonizing piece after another that I am won over
by it's gravity.
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Mood: Happy!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
You choose.
"I'd like you by my side the very next time I have another argument with anyone who says things travel faster then light."
Now there's a subject! Without using an open mind and using conventional theory you are absolutely right.
Would you be willing to debate that with my 25 yr old son? I think he could offer up some newfound material that could OPEN some eyes. I am not
qualified to debate such a profound theory, he is. With that said would it be useless to try to convince a person so tied to a theory that maybe there
is an alternative to conventional wisdom? Perhaps proof. Is your mind really made up?
How can positively endorse any theory? Now you've got my attention. Simple wisdom tells me that theory is just that, theory, not fact. The same
holds true with this subject from the standpoint that we really don't know all the facts about how the sun plus all the other ingredients make up and
affect planetary climate(s). To state that we do would be sticking yer neck out. Ya gotta prove it. Not an easy task eh?
Hmmmmm, I wouldn't be so darn sure that these things cannot be proven or dispelled. Maybe you are one up on Einstein. After all, he's been proven
wrong before.
Taco, you've got a good grasp of the right side of the equation. Now, try the left side. It supposedly performs useful tasks and contributes greatly
to figuring out complex scenarios. Perhaps the left and the right could somehow organize to work together intelligently and
harmoniously........naw..... just a thought. Just another theory.
I'll say one thing. Folks passionate enough to delve so deeply must consider all things left and right. The issue of our existance may or may not be
a part of the global climate trend. For our own friggin' good we better sort it out in an adult fashion. I ain't talkin' bout Nomads sorting it out
here.
But...
Why does this topic have to be so partisan? Because of Gore? Hell I haven't even seen the flick but I have personal concerns. Especially for those
who live in big cities. If Gores' mission is to help slow the amount of pollution not just C02 that enters our atmosphere then I'm for it. To say
it's ok to burn petrocarbons till their exhausted is dangerous and narrow-minded.
[Edited on 4-12-2007 by Sharksbaja] |
I suggest we take actions away from sending more CO2 into the air IF they are relatively economical--as I see it, the sooner we are out of the oil
fields and all the political morass and pollution that it entails the better. If there isn't global warming then so what...we've not lost anything
and are much more energy independent.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64746
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajadogs
Respectfully DavidK, Taco,
"Lies that Algore tells!" -DK quote
Please disprove Al Gore. I have not seen where he has lied. I think you are just repeating "hate radio jargon"
Taco,
The link works for me. While it's old school and a bit boring it is clear that the original film was hell-bent on misrepresenting the facts.
Viva logic, truth and ...Dog Dam I hate being lied to!!!! The video which spawned this thread is embarrassing propaganda. Lots of people fell for it.
Nobody else see's that?
hello?
Taco, I'm truly trying to be civil here. I hope you can catch the video. BTW, he is not my prof. I finished college a long time ago.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656640542976216573... |
To me, it is common sense that Algore needs the idea that man is causing global warming for him to stay in the public's eye. It was really embarassing
the way he handled losing in 2000... no it was pathetic... hanging chads and all...
Why do you believe what any politician tells you about climate change, anyway? Besides his 'inventing the Internet', did Algore also become the
world's smartest man? He sure has a big group of Chicken Littles following him!
If Algore believed that living the way we do in America is so bad, then let him give up his mansions (with enormous heating and cooling bills), flying
around in private jets when a commercial airliner goes to the same place, and owning the very company that he wants people to send money to, to buy
'carbon offsets'. What a joke!
Real science uses all the facts to support any theory or come to a conclusion.
As far as being lied to, the glacier in South America was just one example I mentioned in a previous reply in this thread. Algore and most other
politicians are lying to you. True scientists who have honor would not have any reason to and they just report findings.
I would believe a 'weatherman' over Algore, anyday. Weathermen (meteorologists) are specialists in climate. Losing presidential candidates seeking
attention are specialists in 'bull...'
This thread asked if Global Warming affects Baja...
If there even is global warming, then no... not yet. If there is global warming, it would take a few more generations to notice. The world could be
cooling as predicted 30 years ago... Great planet-wide changes do not happen in your short adult lifetime!
Do what you wish as far as exhaust gasses or eating meat goes, but please don't dictate to other good people how to live or that America is bad for
not doing more.
PEACE!
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
Posts: 1913
Registered: 4-14-2004
Location: Behind the Orange Curtain, CA
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Mood: Dreamin' of Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajadogs
Respectfully DavidK, Taco,
"Lies that Algore tells!" -DK quote
Please disprove Al Gore. I have not seen where he has lied. I think you are just repeating "hate radio jargon"
Taco, I'm truly trying to be civil here. I hope you can catch the video. BTW, he is not my prof. I finished college a long time ago.
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Bajadogs, I appreciate you civility, and the civility of most who have posted on this subject. I hope I have been civil too, as I tried to simply
post "facts" as I see them . And, I knew he was not your school prof…I simply
meant “your guy”
I have tried to keep politics out of this discussion, or at least be fair in my bashing (I dislike both gore and bush, for different reasons, but that
is really for the Off-topic Forum). But I feel I must invoke some politics in this post. (sorry)
Both gore and bush are politicians, not scientists, and politicians seem to think science can be voted on and if a majority of scientists say
something happens because "X" then that's how it is. As I stated before, that's not science.
Baja dogs, in an earlier post you mentioned that you wanted to “follow the money” on some of the scientists and the reports they had prepared on the
conclusion that man has not caused global warming. Do you think this should be applied to gore and the $100,000+ he gets every time he lectures on
global warming??? That’s a big incentive to push for man-caused global warming, don’t you think? What else could he talk about and get money for
it? "My life with the Clintons" ? "Why I hate Florida" ? I don't think so.
As for you request to see where gore lied, please check out A skeptic’s guide to an inconvenient truth . It details slide by slide, statement by statement where gore presents one-sided arguments, fudges
facts or out right lies. It provides back up to support these claims.
Here is the summary of misstatements from the movie, if you just want a list.
Yes, these “facts” may be one-sided too, but they provide some much needed balance to the statements presented in gore’s movie.
Peace
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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danaeb
Senior Nomad
Posts: 991
Registered: 11-13-2006
Location: San Diego; El Centenario
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Mood: groovy
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Follow the money indeed:
"Conoco changes its color"
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2007/04/12/conoco-chan...
Experience enables you to recognize a mistake every time you repeat it.
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bajadogs
Super Nomad
Posts: 1064
Registered: 8-28-2006
Member Is Offline
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David,
| Quote: | | To me, it is common sense that Algore needs the idea that man is causing global warming for him to stay in the public’s eye. It was really embarassing
the way he handled losing in 2000... no it was pathetic... hanging chads and all... |
I think it was pathetic and embarrassing how Bush handled “winning” the presidential election in 2000. 5 of the 9 supreme court justices should have
been impeached for what they did.
| Quote: | | Besides his ‘inventing the Internet’, did Algore also become the world’s smartest man? He sure has a big group of Chicken Littles following him!
|
The “inventing the internet” misquote is a media lie, repeated so often that lots of people believe it.
Back to the topic -
| Quote: | | Real science uses all the facts to support any theory or come to a conclusion. |
Can’t argue with that. “all the facts” - That’s important.
| Quote: | | As far as being lied to, the glacier in South America was just one example I mentioned in a previous reply in this thread. |
There is a reason why you sight just one example - The glacier in Patagonia is one of the less than 1 percent of glaciers worldwide that is not
shrinking at an accelerated rate. This selective type of presenting the facts is intentionally misleading. Remember the importance of “all the facts”?
Of six glaciers in the Venezuelan Andes in 1972, only 2 remain, and scientists predict that these will be gone within the next 10 years. There are
many other facts about shrinking glaciers and ice sheets that should be included into a scientific argument. Sighting one expanding glacier does not
debunk Al Gore. If Gore used video footage of that specific glacier it’s technically incorrect but not intentionally misleading. If he cut that
footage from the film and replaced it with footage from one of the glaciers in Venezuela would that give the film more merit?
| Quote: | This thread asked if Global Warming affects Baja...
If there even is global warming, then no... not yet. If there is global warming, it would take a few more generations to notice. The world could be
cooling as predicted 30 years ago... Great planet-wide changes do not happen in your short adult lifetime! |
In my 40 years I’m pretty sure there have been great planetary changes. Maybe you wouldn’t notice any change if you are camping in a remote area on
the Sea of Cortez, but we all know the Cortez isn’t what is was a couple of generations ago and you would be an idiot if you thought these changes
were natural. I’m not blaming this on global warming, just illustrating how in our short lifetimes it becomes easy to lose track of the impact we have
on our environment.
| Quote: | Do what you wish as far as exhaust gasses or eating meat goes, but please don’t dictate to other good people how to live or that America is bad for
not doing more.
PEACE! |
Peace to you too David,
I haven’t dictated to anyone and never try to convince people that America is bad. I know we could be better though and am convinced that the sooner
we kill our thirst for fossil fuels the better off we’ll be. My commute uses about 6 ounces of fuel. I eat meat, not too often.
Taco,
Thanks. This is my last post on this topic. It’s making me feel ill and I need to get some work done. I promise to take a look at your links.
Have a good weekend.
Mark
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