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Paula
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post erased, hope it doesn't cause any confusion
[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Paula]
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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The Question here is, would American voters accept the fact that the US needs millions and millions of immigrants?
Jesse....If you can see past the ones screaming racism and the ones screaming illegal immigrants, the vast majority of the voting public, I believe
see it that way.
Bush will go down as the worst and least popular president.
I am very upset with him for dangling a pork banana ($5000 fine by 12 million is 60 billion) in front of the Democrats, knowing they will never pass a
opportunity to tax and spend on pork to get re-elected in their district. Our two countries need each other.
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
Pompano, you sure called it right. There is no discussion here, just people making their own noise, myself included. Would have liked to quote your
very wise post, but you pulled ito 
Shoulda kept my mouth shut: :
[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Paula] |
I know you mean well, but there will never be a open border...we live in a terrorist world and if you think the US sucks at controlling their borders,
Mexico has no control...It would become the one place all terrorist would want to hang-out. I am sure you would not want that.
I just realized I repeated myself in my last post
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Paula
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Al G,
It is true, there are terrorists in the world. I'm afraid that if someone wants to perform another act of terrorism against or within the US, they
will not be dependent on crossing the US- mexico or the US- Canada border to do it. And there is so much to be lost in this defensive posture. So we
need a better way to deal with border issues, and a better way to deal with terrorism issues. I have beliefs on these issues, and I know they aren't
popular here-- AND THAT'S OK (insert visual of Stuart Smiley here). So I think I'll just keep 'em to myself 
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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Location: Punta Banda
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Stuart Smalley----- Al Franken?
Whoa....... What are they doin' here in this bastion of fascism?
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
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Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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What are we paying all these border patrol, immigration folks, and assorted nitwits for anyway? Might as well send 'em home. Think
they'd pick strawberries?
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
It's a sensitive, personal issue, and the solutions-- if they can be found will only come about through respectful dialogue. We have to have trust,
good will, and a sincere concern for a good outcome for all sides. I see open borders as a good start. It's a smaller world than it once was, and we
have to learn to share it. And our leaders in congress and the white house need to be more concerned about a good outcome than their own political
careers.
[Edited on 5-27-2007 by Paula] |
Hang in there Paula. I share your thoughtful views. When I debuted on this forum I expressed similar views on open borders and was not well received.
True, I am a liberal but my position should have been embraced by conservatives: "....allow market conditions dictate how many alien workers stay in
the United States and work." I am talking about menial labor jobs that go begging to be filled. When a glut of these workers satisfy the open jobs,
then the overflow will go back. They couldn't afford to stay. This would remove the "illegal" stigma. These alien workers should not fall prey to
employer exploitation. They should not be allowed to displace U.S. workers in industries such as construction, because there are U.S. workers who
still want many of those jobs.
I don't see why we have to extend free medical care or benefits to them other than responding to emergencies. If anyone becomes a drain on us
economically, cut them off. Send them back to the countries in which they are citizens.
I would like to see them registered and monitored as in some form of guest worker program. Unfortunately, the politicians are the ones who make the
rules and not much gets done when they are posturing in their bids for reelection.
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Packoderm
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Open border? Would it be open with only Mexico? Or would Guatemalans, Chinese, North Koreans, Iraqis, and everybody else be welcome as well? And would
that be an unlimited amount of immigrants from each country as well?
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Wiles
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Just wondering…..
What was the view on this issue say 35 years ago in 1972? How many of you lived near our southern border and witnessed the flow of migrant workers
illegally crossing the border? What were the effects on society back then? What was the common opinion? What attempts were made to stop the flow of
illegal immigration and why weren’t they successful? Is there something to be learned from the past?
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Paula
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Can of worms, isn't it, Packoderm? Maybe our own hemisphere would be a good place to start-- Canada, Mexico-- well, then there is Central America,
which leads to South America.... boy, I just don't really know. I do know that it is much harder to enter without a visa if you have to come in
through an airport or by boat, so entry without permission is much more difficult from other continents. Maybe open borders means something more, and
less, than unrestricted movement from one country to another. Perhaps more governmental cooperation between the US and Mexico in actually solving the
economic difficulties of all people would be a starting point. And perhaps if the good citizens of both countries could lose their streotypes of what
the other is like, and get over their I'm just in it for me attitudes, we could all look toward solutions instead of arbitrary barriers. We lose when
the only way to keep the good things we have is with guns and threats against other peoples. If we have to live in fear of losing our stuff, maybe we
have more than our fair share.
I know I'm gonna catch hell for this one...
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
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Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
Maybe open borders means something more, and less, than unrestricted movement from one country to another....
...we could all look toward solutions instead of arbitrary barriers. We lose when the only way to keep the good things we have is with guns and
threats against other peoples. If we have to live in fear of losing our stuff, maybe we have more than our fair share.
I know I'm gonna catch hell for this one... |
Probably...but definitely not from me...this is a subject that deserves a much more thoughtful and compassionate dialogue than it gets.
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amir
Senior Nomad
Posts: 559
Registered: 5-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
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Mood: chiropractic
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People have been crossing borders illegally forever. The grass is always greener on the other side. The Great Wall of China was an early attempt to
stem the flow. The current problem now is being politicized, of course, and like Grover said above, and I said a few pages back in this thread, the
bottom line is "who benefits?" If nothing was done 35 years ago it is because it was profitable to let it happen then. The consequences were then, and
are now, inevitable, and it's always the little guy, the taxpayer, who foots the bill. Pretecting the little guy has seldom been a priority for big
government. The rich look after themselves and everybody else pays the price.
--Amir
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Packoderm
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Yet more questions:
How are we to help Mexico, a fairly rich country overall, change when our own ruling class wants the U.S. to become more like Mexico?
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/mexicoisrich.html
The above link is from what looks to be a racist organization, but the articles are interesting nevertheless.
[Edited on 07/17/2004 by Packoderm]
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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"Who benefits?" Where does it say that's the bottom line?
If everybody benefited, there would be no issue. It wouldn't even be discussed.
These issues and discussions began with the question, "Who loses."
The costs of ILLEGAL immigration thirty five years ago hadn't taken the immense proportions which they have today. They hadn't as yet undercut union
wages and all but eliminated the protections that collective bargaining fought to put in place.
They hadn't, at that time, overloaded public services and escalated our taxes because doctors don't work for nothing in spite of the fact that many
don't pay for medical attention.
So, who benefits under todays scenario? Everybody but the taxpayer.
It's bad enough when we have to be aware of our own welfare deadbeats, those who suck all of the altruism out of the system.
It becomes worse when we have to care for so many others who have been ignored by their own government and sent off to fend for themselves in the land
of remittances.
Immigration, as well as our border, has to be respected and controlled.
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
"Who benefits?" Where does it say that's the bottom line?
If everybody benefited, there would be no issue. It wouldn't even be discussed.
These issues and discussions began with the question, "Who loses."
The costs of ILLEGAL immigration thirty five years ago hadn't taken the immense proportions which they have today. They hadn't as yet undercut union
wages and all but eliminated the protections that collective bargaining fought to put in place.
They hadn't, at that time, overloaded public services and escalated our taxes because doctors don't work for nothing in spite of the fact that many
don't pay for medical attention.
So, who benefits under todays scenario? Everybody but the taxpayer.
It's bad enough when we have to be aware of our own welfare deadbeats, those who suck all of the altruism out of the system.
It becomes worse when we have to care for so many others who have been ignored by their own government and sent off to fend for themselves in the land
of remittances.
Immigration, as well as our border, has to be respected and controlled. |
I don't agree with that, if immigration was as bad for your economy as you think, your goverment would have closed the borders a long long time ago.
If it can fly several hundred thousands soldiers complete with all their equipment across the globe and keep them there for years at a cost of
hundreds of billions, i am absolutely sure it can close the border when ever it wishes.
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DENNIS
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Jesse ----
I agree. Our government could maintain the border, but wont. The government doesn't care about the cost of services. It doesn't cost the
government anything. They just raise taxes. Taxpayers pay for it.
So, what are you saying? That the overpopulation of immigrants isn't a burden on the taxpayer?
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Paula
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Social services is a pretty small percentage of the US budget. It sounds like a huge expense providing education and medical care to the poor, but
percentage wise it's not what is burning the hole in your pocket. The cost of war and defense is the biggie.
Jessie, I'm curious what you think of the article that Packoderm posted. I know that many Mexicans suffer economic distress, and I know that the
government is corrupt (as is ours), and I know how wealthy Carlos Slim is, but I didn't know that the economy is so large?
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DENNIS
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Packoderm ----
That's a good link. A little outdated but, good. I like the part about Rumsfeld identifying failed states. Those states are still here but,
where's Rummy?
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rts551
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OK lets just apply the rules both ways..... (and as many have said "the law is the law"). No more crossing south until you have some paperwork..
And if you are not here in Mexico legally... OH well.. and before you jump on me look at the past posts on "declare or no declare", or "do I have
to get paperwork for my house in Punta ______", or "How do I get around the immigration checkpoint.... " Ahhhh enough said... sometimes we are the
most ________ people (fill in the blank). Hey maybe I can trade with someone... I would like to immigrate
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Jesse ----
I agree. Our government could maintain the border, but wont. The government doesn't care about the cost of services. It doesn't cost the
government anything. They just raise taxes. Taxpayers pay for it.
So, what are you saying? That the overpopulation of immigrants isn't a burden on the taxpayer? |
I think they know exactly the cost's and benefits of immigration, the fact they don't do anything about it, means to me that it provides more than it
takes. If immigration was truly a burden, the problem would have been fixed easily many years ago.
Theres no other logical explanation, unless, the US goverment has politicians as stupid as the ones we have here in Mexico, and we all know thats not
true.
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