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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Yes! I agree with the permits etc. Childlike and silly? Suppose so. I've just
got to live with.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering what is next???
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When nailed down you are gracious. Thank you...
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Alan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1626
Registered: 4-6-2005
Location: Yucaipa, CA/La Paz
Member Is Offline
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Permits? Sorry I can't support that. Its would just be more government bureacracy. So now the guy with the permit interprets this to mean he now
has the right to be just as obnoxious as he so desires and he has a permit to prove it. 
Instead of making new laws to govern ATV's or trying to nail everyone with an unreasonable existing law of "thou shall not ride on the beach
regardless of how, where or when", why not do as Shari suggested and the Mexican police seems to have already implemented unofficially and that is to
simply use a different, more realistic law such as disturbing the peace or reckless endangerment to control abusers?
ATV's allow ALL of us who so choose to experience areas of the peninsula we could never see any other way.
One of my personal peeves are the "Lake Lice" (PWC) when I'm enjoying an afternoon of fishing. Of course they are a pure kick in the burro when I am
the one riding one of them.
We have all invested in Baja with our time or money for a reason and a big reason for many of us was to escape some of the insanity and complete
departure from logic created by the Vocal Minority in our home countries.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering what is next???
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Well said Allen and I agree except for the permit issue. I see it as protection from the individuals that will stop at nothing to maintain their "I
got here first" status under the guise of Protecting the environment.
I am truly a protector... a Steward of the earth...hell you can even call me a turtle hugger, but we all must be reasonable..we need the permit to
protect us from the "I got mine" protectors
Shari area has a good thing going, and if all areas were the same, I would have no case....it just is not so where the money has landed.
Maybe not there much longer...
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
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I sense concensus here about off roading and about the situation with the law. I like to 4 wheel drives in baja in fact I like it tremendously. I like
to work to fix some older classic rigs which I enjoy off road ranchin' and to the beach. Though honestly, I don't see many americans anywhere I go. I
do see lots of Mexicans who are quite vocal and I read the signs and try to get along with everyone. After many years I got the message, I can do
whatever I want just dont go the last 20 meters unless you need to launch or take out. It doesn't bug me, and really the times I have gone near the
water I feel a little silly since I know if I get stuck playing silly down there that would be dumb.
http://vps.ooto.com/042007/pages/P4200011.html
[Edited on 6-12-2007 by gnukid]
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
oxxo and others, there are beaches in Baja that you have not or likely never will see that are not like the ones you know... They are just sand, no
people, no turtle eggs, and no critters are killed if a 4WD or ATV is on the beach.
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Well, if we don't know about these places, then there wouldn't be any need for this discussion.
This last weekend, my spouse and I were sitting in plain sight on the sand at the surf line, toasting the setting sun and enjoying the solitude. A
gringo pendejo adult came driving along the beach on his ATV with cerveza in his left hand and 4 kids sitting on the fenders of the quad. He buzzed
us going about 20mph with 10 feet to spare on a beach that is about 100 yards wide. They all laughed at scaring us as they drove off. I guess they
were headed to the nut house.
Neanderthals! Get all the ATV's off the beach.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64848
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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oxxo, I would be just as angry as you if that happened to me... ATV riders are not all idiots, but perhaps all idiots are ATV riders!
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
Member Is Offline
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why didn't you chase him down and beat the chit out of him for scaring your wife???
Perhaps my friend, the neanderthal in you has been beaten out of you by this whining, cry baby society we've (unfortuneately) created.
I, neanderthal or not, would never do that to someone sitting and enjoying the beach.....It's rude, gross, ignorant and unjust, however, don't judge
the tre for one bad apple.
cap'n g
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Capt. George
why didn't you chase him down and beat the sh-t out of him for scaring your wife???
I, neanderthal or not, would never do that to someone sitting and enjoying the beach.....It's rude, gross, ignorant and unjust, however, don't judge
the tre for one bad apple.
cap'n g |
You mean my husband? How can I chase him down when he is going 20 mph. The best I could do was the finger.
I appreciate the fact that you would not do that. I think everyone who has posted here has to appreciate the perspective from which they post. I do
not want to spoil anyone's fun. But I expect to be treated with equal respect. What I have related is really what happened and it is not an isolated
incident. That's what makes some of us so adament. There are MANY bad apples. It does not breed understanding when you write that you are going to
ride down that beach with a cerveza in my left hand and off into the nut house, come hell or high water. That is a bit dogmatic. On the other hand
it is a bit dogmatic for me to say death to all ATV's because of a bunch of bad apples. Can't we all just get along?
Let's all work together on this to reach a compromise, I know there is something we can agree on. Mutual respect promotes mutual understanding.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering what is next???
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We can add a condition...
With a permit...$40 say...You must also have a Mexican fishing Licence...$44...not needed for shore, but all real fishermen have them... would put you
in the position of being a true fisherman.
1)Tackle with you at all times.
2)Track off the beach to pass people on the beach. (min. 20 meters)
3) Maximum 25 KPH if people are present.
4) Park/ride 10 meter above high tide
5) Violation of any above...$10,000 Paso fine and suspension of permit for one year.
6) second violation....Lost of quad...tackle and 100,000 peso fine or deportation..
Think I am serious??....hell.., I think running a red light should be a $10,000.00 Dll. fine...Acting stupid with a vehicle should be a $100,000.00
Dll. Fine...would not be long before alot of CHP would have to retire
ask me why...easy no income to support them. OK OK I know they are funded by the state, but some municipalities would suffer greatly and that is why
they do not want people to stop running lights etc..
WoW where did that rant come from
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
Member Is Offline
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"can't we all just get along?" didn't that burrowipe Rodney (something or other) make that statement.. Now there's a real role model for someone to
quote?, the cops should have simply shot him rather then just giving him the beating he deserved................
sorry I'm off track but I worked all the major ghettos in NYC in the 70's....just the remembrance of an buttcrack like that sends me off. Dealt with
too many of them to feel even an ounce of pity..try spending the night surrounded by hundreds of Rodneys rioting (& of course, looting)..If your
son/daughter were a police officer, how would you like them to deal with garbage like that every working day? A cops life is worth much more.
You quote Rodney and complain about people driving on beaches, seems to me, something is really off-balance in your order of priorities.
"I" never mentioned driving down the beach with a cerveza in my hand, never have, never will, But, I assure you, I will continue to drive on the
beaches until they lock me up.
Dedicate "swimming beaches", walking accessability only, for those that do not want to look at vehicles. Permits I really do not favor but would not
put up a huge fight if they keep the outer beaches open to vehicles.
Fines, I have no problem with, as long as they address the marooons ruining it for everyone. Fishermen are few and far between that act with
disrespect towards the environment....we are the users only, not the abusers. It hurts us the most when areas are shut down for reasons that are
neither scientifically justified nor problem solving. nuff said.
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3507
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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Yankee go home!
| Quote: | Originally posted by Capt. George
"I" never mentioned driving down the beach with a cerveza in my hand, never have, never will, But, I assure you, I will continue to drive on the
beaches until they lock me up. |
Hope I get a chance to bust your sorry butt. Catch you on my beach, go to jail! Your attitude is everything that is wrong with Baja. Bet your
a gringo.
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Capt. George
"can't we all just get along?" didn't that burrowipe Rodney (something or other) make that statement |
No I made the statement. I can tell from your vocabulary, you must be from Bakersfield.
| Quote: | | "I" never mentioned driving down the beach with a cerveza in my hand, never have, never will, |
No, I never said you did. Your alter ego VIABAJA said it
| Quote: | | But, I assure you, I will continue to drive on the beaches until they lock me up. |
I look forward to the day. With your attitude they should throw away the key.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64848
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
| Quote: | Originally posted by Capt. George
"I" never mentioned driving down the beach with a cerveza in my hand, never have, never will, But, I assure you, I will continue to drive on the
beaches until they lock me up. |
Hope I get a chance to bust your sorry butt. Catch you on my beach, go to jail! Your attitude is everything that is wrong with Baja. Bet your
a gringo.
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Lee, that's bad attitude you're showing towards a fellow Baja amigo...
How about addressing all the grafitti painted in Baja, specially on the boulders near Cataviņa (not by gringos). I mean they actually make it a family
outing to go out and mark up some beautiful rocks that have sat there for 10 million years or more! This is supposed to be a 'Natural Area' called El
Valle de los Cirios... Then there is the habit of just throwing all their trash out the window or leaving a campsite with all the beer bottles,
garbage and dirty diapers behind... GROSS!
At least the tire tracks on a beach are erased by the next high tide!
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viabaja
Nomad
Posts: 277
Registered: 10-6-2003
Location: Georgia
Member Is Offline
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OXXO, I don't know you and you don't know me. So please keep my name out of your posts.
Everyone has an opinon and that's great. But this has gotten somewhat personal and I don't why. I think the general consensus is that we who come to
Baja, and I have coming since 1958, is because of what Baja is. I've seen alot of changes in the 49 years. Some good, some bad. So when I said
"driving down the beach with a cerveza in my left hand", the metaphor should have been apparent to all. That is, no restrictions, the abilty to enjoy
a hot sunny day slowly touring deserted beaches. This is not something that can be done in the states. There is no promotion of alcohol. I could just
have said water.
So when these restrictions that many would like to see in place occur, I'll pack it all up and go elsewhere. As always everyone should be respectfull
of other people on a beach. Give them wide bearths and don't cross in front. Don't camp near other people, etc.. Regretfully, many Americans and
Mexicans don't follow that. It is what is! Like those M80's going off at 2 AM!
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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viabaja, I agree with your perspective on all this. 
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3507
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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OK, I admit it. I'm not perfect.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
| Quote: | Originally posted by Capt. George
"I" never mentioned driving down the beach with a cerveza in my hand, never have, never will, But, I assure you, I will continue to drive on the
beaches until they lock me up. |
Hope I get a chance to bust your sorry butt. Catch you on my beach, go to jail! Your attitude is everything that is wrong with Baja. Bet your
a gringo.
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Lee, that's bad attitude you're showing towards a fellow Baja amigo...
How about addressing all the grafitti painted in Baja, specially on the boulders near Cataviņa (not by gringos).! |
I agree David. I do have a bad attitude. And if GEORGE would just chill out, cut the profanity towards other Nomads, cut the CRAP about cops
shooting Rodney King, and all the rest of the Feo Americano grandstanding, I'd have a better attitude, here.
I understand and share EVERYBODY's feelings about seeing Mexicans throwing garbage out of car windows, leaving their garbage on the beaches, and a
major complaint I have, and don't talk about much and don't want to get worked up over, is MEXICAN ATVers on beaches, drunk, speeding, and reckless.
And then there are the MEXICANS who speed, drunk, and recklessly in their pickups (Toyota and Ford among others). And less than the sound and
disturbance, I have to end up focusing on them, watching to make sure I don't get run over. Holidays, weekends, sometimes, and you get the
picture. Go to another beach? OK. I'll give up walking to my beach, and drive 5 miles down the road.
And you know what? Ultimately, all I'm really concerned about is my safety. It's their beach, their turtles, their country -- so I really have no
attitude about it.
I DON'T see gringoes doing any of this. I've experienced this group as just put-putting down the beach, maybe a group of 4, but it's not a big
deal. I can live with it. And they DON't get crazy.
My major problem is something I've witnessed over the years and I get an attitude about it: gringoes who come down thinking ANYTHING GOES! Mexico?
No laws! The wild West. ACT OUT and do and say anything that comes to mind. Manners? Didn't learn it at home. Buffooons!
When PROFEPA removes any laws about motorized vehicles on beaches, I'll shrug and think... OK. I really don't care whether gringoes agree with the
law or not. It's a law, as there are many laws in Mexico, and I respect it and hope that other's do too. I work at NOT judging the law breakers
and mind my own business -- unless my safety is at jeopardy.
If I'm in Todos Santos at 2 a.m., and come up to a stop sign, I STOP! Just the way I am. People in this situation can do anything they want.
I get the impression that because certain laws aren't enforced consistently, they aren't on the books. Or, in the judgment of some gringoes, they
are above the law.... or, and here's where I have a problem, there is contempt and disrespect for the law -- and maybe it's because it's a MEXICAN
LAW. You tell me. I don't have answers for anyone but me.
And I KNOW there are two laws in Mexico. One for Mexicans and one for Gringoes. I didn't create this. Don't blame me.
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Cardon Man
Super Nomad
Posts: 1319
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Thetis Bank
Member Is Offline
Mood: !Al Chingaso!
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Muy Interesante!
wow. this thread has really gotten interesting. Seems like this whole ATV/beach issue brings to light a number of different perspectives we Nomads
have regarding the Baja experience. Keep up the good posts fellow nomads. and keep up the honesty, i'm lovin it! Hope you are too.
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by viabaja
OXXO, I don't know you and you don't know me. So please keep my name out of your posts. |
| Quote: | Originally posted by viabaja
Hear Hear for Capt. George!! All you tree (cardon cactus) hugging gated community green dudes stay in the states and leave Baja. I will continue to
ride the beaches in my jeep and quads with a cerveza in my left hand!! I suspect I'll be able to do this for many years to come!
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Dude, you said it you got to live with it!
BTW, David K is this any way to treat a fellow Nomad?
"All you tree (cardon cactus) hugging gated community green dudes stay in the states and leave Baja. "
Hipocrisy is alive and well on Baja Nomad!
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
Member Is Offline
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lee, I'm glad you're in Todos Santos, a good place for you. Please stay there and be happy.
chill out out and go for a nice ride on the beach........
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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