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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Isn't the peso the basic unit of currency in Mexico? Why wouldn't a person use
pesos to pay their bills when in Mexico?
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I turned this into a moral issue, my bad. It is just human nature to get the best deal that one can and to "soak the rich".
Iflyfish |
Flyman,
Stick with your initial instincts. It IS a moral issue. Right and wrong is simple and straightforward in life. And it's not a cultural phenomena. It's
innate and your sense of being knows it without much thinking.
Nothing posted on this forum has shown otherwise. Having it also occur in the us.... Having prices discretely hidden from customers..... Being accused
of being a cheapskate..... None of this changes the injustice of charging people different rates for the same service.
When you start to accept this outlook you inevitably become like them. It becomes a game of dishonesty, where you try to outfox and outmaneuver one
another. Not a good way to go through life.
Having said that I actually do fine abroad and love to travel. I find all of these shenanigans amusing. But they're not my values.
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13048
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Interesting how many people THINK that bartering is the way here...what I find fascinating is that the local people here rarely question a price or
haggle...Juan would NEVER do that and is always really embarrased if I do it...even in a segunda. I have seen tourists at a store try to haggle which
is ridiculous and embarrasing. I have even had tourists stay with us and when I tell them how much they owe for camping for example...$25, I had a
candian say..."I'll give ya $20"!!! NOt cool at all. NOw, when someone pays me in dollars I am happy yes...but I accept pesos at 10-1...so I lose
out...but ya know it all works out in the end so I don't sweat the small stuff. The prices for meals for gringos doesn't vary but a couple of bucks so
no big deal either. My experience is that many gringos who complain about being shortchanged or ripped off ..often weren't...but they just didn't
understand what was happening or the price to begin with..or how the money works etc. Also not true about "looking" gringo...I look gringa but speak
fluent spanish and that immediately makes a huge difference and so they treat me as a local (which I am)...the other day the hair stylist didn't
charge me the $5 for a haircut as I sent a few people to her restaurant...cool...but I gave her kids some money on the way out to buy sodas.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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So, as some here say, it's OK for a merchant to have variable pricing based on personal reasons. "Support the locals. Bleed the tourist, the guest.
We make money no matter which price we charge but, the occasional shopper just passing through will have to pay more." Very nice.
Let's take it to another level. Let's take it to downtown Atlanta at the Redneck Diner. The owner, who spends his weekends covered with a white
sheet, has two menus. One for Whites and one for Blacks. He does this for personal reasons. He does it because he wants Blacks to pay more than his
White buddys. Is he within his rights to do this or would this be called discrimination?
Sounds like discrimination to me because it is, so, why would it be abhorred in Atlanta and, at once, an honored practice in La Paz? Values shouldn't
change at the border but, I think they have for some.
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
So, as some here say, it's OK for a merchant to have variable pricing based on personal reasons. "Support the locals. Bleed the tourist, the guest.
We make money no matter which price we charge but, the occasional shopper just passing through will have to pay more." Very nice.
Let's take it to another level. Let's take it to downtown Atlanta at the Redneck Diner. The owner, who spends his weekends covered with a white
sheet, has two menus. One for Whites and one for Blacks. He does this for personal reasons. He does it because he wants Blacks to pay more than his
White buddys. Is he within his rights to do this or would this be called discrimination?
Sounds like discrimination to me because it is, so, why would it be abhorred in Atlanta and, at once, an honored practice in La Paz? Values shouldn't
change at the border but, I think they have for some. |
if you can't stand the heat, stay outta Baja!
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by woody in ob
if you can't stand the heat, stay outta Baja! |
Can't do that. I live here.
I'm not trying to change anything but, I don't have to accept the practice as morally correct just because "that's the way it is."
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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Who would have thought such a simple topic could bring on so much serious discussion--I'm having second thoughts about ever going shopping again.
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalera
Who would have thought such a simple topic could bring on so much serious discussion--I'm having second thoughts about ever going shopping again.
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It's not called shopping anymore. It's an auction.
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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Longlegs, you are so correct in things being different for occasional tourists than residents.
And DK, amazing, simply amaxing that YOU would accuse someone else of whining----just amazing. 
I do think it is a shame that some people encourage others here to charge more, to charge a gringo price---just don't understand that one at all. I
agree that there is a moral issue in that.
Now, a little clarification of what we posted looooong ago. We really believe it is ALL situational. Examples:
Fancier restaurant in tourist area with two differently priced menus, no way unless we get the Spanish menu. In fact in any place where it is
standard to charge a gringo price vs a Mexican price is not where we want to be. We would feel the same way about places in the US who charged any
foreigners more.
Small restaurant in a town like ours---very different situation. Our favorite restaurant here, Tres. Hermanos has NO menus, no posted prices, and we
know that sometimes we are not charged the same---we think, but don't ask me the price of a taco there, I don't know. No posted prices. We are not
sure all of the family agree as to the prices, but it is all VERY good and very fairly priced.
And when we take people to that restaurant, we are apt to sit there a very long time and tip very well. Now, that same restaurant is partially
feeding some workers who are in town building the new hotel. When they are there, a tab is being kept---not sure who is paying for it, but we very
much expect they are getting a bulk rate----that is to be expected, IMHO
And if they feed any other local worker for less, we have no problem with that. If they hand out food to a needy person for free, great, but the
idea that it is somehow moral to charge someone more just because they are a gringo---well, I liked Dennis' analogy.
Local llantera charged us the same 30 pesos they charged the other person there---that we expect---we also tip.
Walked into Second Hand Store in Guerrero Negro and were quoted about four times over the growing rate for a chest of drawers ---- we left and will
not go back to that store.
Bargain? Yes, we bargain with segundas in Vizcaino and Guerrero Negro when we are buying a number of items---don't see anything wrong with that. We
do the same thing in the states. We simply ask for the price if we buy several items. And yes, we are still probably paying more than a local, but
as we said before---fair for everyone. In Bahia Asuncion, if we feel a traveling segunda is quoting us a really high gringo price, we just walk
away----that has only happened a couple of times.
Prices at the stores in Vizcaino are set. But there is one large hardware store where we will no longer shop---they are quite rude and while we wait
in line, they are apt to ignore us and wait on locals. However, Juan told us that they treat him and everyone else who is not from Vizcaino that
way----so it is not a gringo thing. But, in fear of "whining" if we are treated rudely, we don't go back.
Bottom line, IMHO, to think that one should always pay more just because they are gringos has a very condescending attitude behind it and to encourage
it is a moral issue.
Diane
[Edited on 4-25-2008 by jdtrotter]
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I turned this into a moral issue, my bad. It is just human nature to get the best deal that one can and to "soak the rich".
Iflyfish |
Flyman,
Stick with your initial instincts. It IS a moral issue. Right and wrong is simple and straightforward in life. And it's not a cultural phenomena. It's
innate and your sense of being knows it without much thinking.
Nothing posted on this forum has shown otherwise. Having it also occur in the us.... Having prices discretely hidden from customers..... Being accused
of being a cheapskate..... None of this changes the injustice of charging people different rates for the same service.
When you start to accept this outlook you inevitably become like them. It becomes a game of dishonesty, where you try to outfox and outmaneuver one
another. Not a good way to go through life.
Having said that I actually do fine abroad and love to travel. I find all of these shenanigans amusing. But they're not my values.
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I too enjoy travel and have done so in Mexico for over forty years. I make friends everywhere I go, I genuinely like most people, and make friends
most places I go. I always try to leave a place with good feelings on both my part and the part of those I interact with. It is my intention to live
my life in as conscious and positive way as possible. I sleep well at night not having to carry the Karma of screwing someone else.
I would hate to have to carry the constant burden of trying to decide and negotiate each transaction based upon idiosyncratic criteria, i.e. I will
charge this person less because their child was just sick, is this a rich or poor norte? etc. That would be mind numbing to me. I am just too lazy
for all of that. I also think that there are so many posibilities in such a system for bad feelings that I would not do that as a self protective
measure. I have done business with many Mexicans who do not operate with double prices etc. I now believe that these folks are a minority.
I suspect however that a sort of situational ethic is what underlies fmost of the Mexican economy and way of doing business. There is plenty of reason
for a sense of victim entitlement given US and Mexican history. I have not changed my own moral values about that, I just believe that jt is right in
that if one lives or travels for any length of time in Mexico that one must accept the reality of these situational ethics. Then one is left with how
to engage with it. Because my gyrescope is set differently than others around me does not mean my gyro is wrong, just not calibrated in the same way.
I need to accept the reality of what is, to fight that is to live in a posture of fighting, and that is how I think I would become like those whose
behavior I do not like. I appreciate your caution and found myself becoming even more rigid as I thought and felt thru this issue. I could easily
become the rigid, negotiate for everything, pinch the buffalo off the nickle kind of guy and become over focused upon this issue and adapt the screw
them before they screw me attitude. That is easy to do and I can see how some become cynical and reactive in response to this sort of system.
Toward that end I would not charge someone else a different price because they are of a different social, racial or economic class. I would rather
give something away than to engage in some sort of situational assessmant of their ability to pay. I am of course not talking about something that I
put on Craig's list for sale, If I say the price is non negotiable, I will not change it. It then becomes a matter of principal. If I list something
and don't say I am non negotiable then I expect that most people will offer me a different price.
Bargaining is different in my mind than charging one person something and another something else based upon their membersip in a class, race, sexual
orientation, economic circumstance etc. My morality tells me that that is wrong. I have not changed that perspective. I also think that ultimately
that is not good business pratice. I don't think we can draw a line with out it reflecting our character.
I have not given up my values. I think it is wrong to charge one person one thing and another different price. I think that discrimination on any
level is imoral, wrong and self defeating. I think that the sort of duplicity discussed here is immoral. I have seen some practice it and not others.
It is a choice.
I wish to clarify my statement, I appreciate your picking up on it. "I turned this into a moral issue, my bad. It is just human nature to get the best
deal that one can and to "soak the rich".
By assuming this posture, it allows me to move through this situation with out getting stuck in good/bad, moral/immoral. If I stick myself in this
posture I have created a win/lose situation that tars the "other" with feathers of immorality and changes the focus of the transaction. I need to
understand the "lay of the land" so that I can best negotiate it with ease and hopefully some grace. If I make ohers bad, that makes this much harder.
This is why I must accept, not in the sense of condoning it, but in the sense of accepting that this is the way it is, and then progress from there.
By reminding myself that greed is a part of human nature, and that I am human, then I cannot divorce myself from some one who is operating out of a
different value system. I just need to be clear about what is really happening and adjust accordingly. I do not want to be ripped off and don't want
to rip anyone else off. If I am walking around concerned about being ripped off then I either need to walk somewhere else oar change my way of dealing
with things so that I know I am taking good care of myself. I do not have to give up my morality, just my posture. Like Marianne Williams says in her
book on A Course of Miracles says: "If you want to see a miracle, change your mind" I think there is truth in that. I think jdtrotter is expressing
it better than I am. But, then what's new?
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Skipjack, finding a place where you take good care of yourself, see the game clearly and smile at it indicates an evolution and resolution of this
issue. You are not walking around with one of these going on in your head and
that is where I get if I catch myself in moralizing about these things that is part of what I am taking from this great dialogue.
Iflyfish
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3509
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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US Morality RULES the World. Think again.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
It IS a moral issue. Right and wrong is simple and straightforward in life. And it's not a cultural phenomena. It's innate and your sense of being
knows it without much thinking.
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Profit motive is immoral? Vendors in MX (poor) raising prices for Gringoes (rich) is wrong? Let me see if I have this right: American's
are in Mexico judging Mexicans by their (US) morality. Have you talked with the Mexicans about this.
This is looking like WHITE PEOPLE whinning about their disposable income and how it was in the old days.
Oh, you mean you and the rest of the world are in agreement with behavioral moral conformity -- and those breaking the rules are bad.
This is a ''non-issue'' for 3rd World developing countries. Ask around.
Right and wrong IS black and white in the US. It's NOT that way in the rest of the world.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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Anoither interesting topic! I think that people from opposite ends of the spectrum make valid points. I find myself somewhere in the middle. I love
my "professional" discount I get in California because of some unique credentials I hold. However, as a full time resident of Los Cabos, I don't find
myself particularly abused, anymore than the average Mexican.
This is exactly the kind of thoughtful discussion that is needed on Nomads, especially if everyone keeps it civil.
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
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Mood: Everchangin'
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| Quote: |
Walked into Second Hand Store in Guerrero Negro and were quoted about four times over the growing rate for a chest of drawers ---- we
left and will not go back to that store.
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same as it ever was.....the chicks in L.A. wouldn't blink at these prices.... 
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The Gull
Super Nomad
Posts: 2223
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rancho Descanso, BCN
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Mood: High
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Huh?
What is the growing rate for a chest of drawers in a second hand store in GN?
I would call that a real stumper of a question.
What would be the growing rate for a rear lens on a 94 Honda in a Baja Yonke yard?
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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sd
Nomad
Posts: 487
Registered: 3-19-2008
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Thanks for all the comments!!
I have lived in a Southern California resort town for several years. We all appreciate every tourist. Without the tourists, many places would not stay
open.
I am happy to report that tourists are charged the same prices as locals. Seasonal conditions change prices that are charged in some cases, but the
changes apply to eveyone.
Great for our economy, guests have a nice time and most come back for more visits.
Treat everyone the way you would like to be treated.
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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So, is a senior citizen discount OK???
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Hook
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9010
Registered: 3-13-2004
Location: Sonora
Member Is Offline
Mood: Inquisitive
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajaguy
So, is a senior citizen discount OK??? |
Technically, no. But no one challenges it in courts because:
1-the image of old people eating dog food on fixed incomes looms
2-everyone hopes to get that discount when the reach that age
Ironically, the richest segment of the population (by age) in the US are people 60 and over.........the ones who least need the discount. 
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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.........the ones who least need the discount.
So sez you
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TonyC
Nomad
Posts: 421
Registered: 1-25-2008
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I wanted some drywall work done in Baja Norte. The price told to me for the work seemed way to high, and I said so. The guy's reply was that if I went
to San Diego that's what I would pay. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I wanted to ask him, when he's in San Diego does he pay Mexico prices....
like for gas? I left it alone. I had the work done by someone else.
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