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Moika
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Pardon for my broken use of the English language. What I was trying to express was that despite the final result, it is more important to participate,
to be responsible, to take matters in our own hands and act than just wait to see what happens (which is what most of us, Mexicans, have done). Is a
matter of learning how to be citizens and not just spectators. Is about building a present and a future and not just waiting for something or someone
to bring it.
I’m not denying that any project represents an opportunity and that Punta Banda needs opportunities, the discussion is Who, What, How, and Why, it is
not about protect the environment and forget about people because we know that people are part of it. Is about Sustainable Development and Social
Responsibility…
I don’t care if you don’t believe that it could or would work, I just need to do it…
Moika.
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BFS
Senior Nomad
Posts: 520
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Location: Todos Santos
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nopo
Thanks for the tip.
I voted!
Aq
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bajabound2005
Ultra Nomad
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A Little More on Punta Brava/Tiger Woods/Environment etc.
Going for the green
Tiger Woods backs residential golf resort planned for Baja, but potential effect on the environment brings out critics
By Jose Luis Jiménez
STAFF WRITER
2:00 a.m. February 8, 2009
Rock outcroppings frame the view toward Islas de Todos Santos in the Pacific Ocean; sea lions play in the clear blue water; caves shelter the shells
left by indigenous people who roamed the area hundreds of years ago.
Even as worldwide economic troubles continue to mount, the property near Ensenada is expected to join the development trend this summer as work begins
to transform it into a golf course designed by Tiger Woods. Punta Brava, the developers say, will be breathtaking.
But unless you have at least $3 million to buy an estate home site or a villa, don't bother calling for a tee time when the ultra-private course
opens, scheduled for 2011. Only homeowners and their guests will be allowed to play it.
Some real estate experts question the wisdom of developing a high-priced golf club in the midst of a slumping global economy. It is also in an area
known more for spring breakers and retired U.S. expats than as an exclusive tourist destination. In addition, a high level of violent crime in Mexico,
mainly fueled by drug gangs, has made headlines in the United States and across the world.
Local environmentalists also are concerned about the potential damage that could be done to the coastal environment by the introduction of non-native
grass and the chemicals needed to keep it green.
Texas-based developer Brady Oman pledges nothing will reach the ocean, except for a few errant golf shots. In a recent interview, Oman said the
company is committed to keeping the $100 million project as environmentally friendly as possible.
He also said the development is fully financed, thanks to the deep pockets of Red McCombs, who co-founded media giant Clear Channel Communications.
And he expects well-to-do golf lovers will be lining up to purchase property so they can play on only the third course designed by Woods. Developers
say that with water on three sides and a 1,200-foot peak at the entry to the project, the location is secure.
"We are really confident because of the site, the team of developers and the proximity to Southern California," Oman said. "The site is a
once-in-a-lifetime site."
Oman, who has developed golf-and-housing projects in Texas, started scouting the peninsula several years ago. Another member of the development team
found the site in 2006, near the famous La Bufadora sea geyser and about 10 miles west of Highway 1, the main north-south route in Baja California. An
Ensenada family that planned to use the 300 acres for retreats sold the property and got a five-acre estate on the site.
Next was getting the partners on board. Woods visited the site in 2007, committed to the development and stopped by again after his dramatic U.S. Open
win at Torrey Pines last summer.
With Woods on board, Oman said it was easy to get McCombs to back the deal. After the announcement of the project at a Beverly Hills hotel in October,
a sales office was opened in downtown San Diego. A helicopter is available to fly potential buyers to the property, where the par-70 golf course is
staked out, along with the locations of the clubhouse, spa and an ocean club with a pool.
So far, 12 people have committed to purchasing at the development, including Woods himself. A total of 40 estate home sites and 100 villas will be
sold. Owners will have the opportunity to hosts guests at 20 of the villas; the exact arrangements are being worked out, according to the developers.
Approximately 750 people will be employed during the construction phase, with 200 permanent jobs afterward. Potable water will be provided by a
desalination plant, and irrigation water will drain into retention ponds, which will then be recycled through a treatment plant, Oman said.
"Nothing goes into the ocean," Oman said.
While local environmentalists applaud the steps taken to lessen the environmental impacts, the immediate surroundings will be affected, said Juan
Manuel Rodríguez, who heads the department of urban and environmental studies at Colegio de la Frontera Norte, or COLEF, a Tijuana-area think tank.
Manuel, who attended the public hearing for the project last month before Mexico's environmental agency, cited three areas of concern.
The first is the adverse impact that earth moving and grading would have on the animals and plants that inhabit the site and nearby waters. Next, the
area is a "dry coastal zone," and introducing lots of water and chemicals would change the indigenous vegetation.
Lastly, dumping the highly concentrated salt residue produced by desalination plants into the ocean could harm the sea plants and creatures near the
outfall.
"Little by little, the grass on the golf course will invade the indigenous coastal vegetation," Manuel said. "What the people of Ensenada want is that
the beautiful coastal views and access to the surrounding waters be preserved."
The development along northern Baja California's Pacific coast is turning it into an extension of urban Southern California, said Horacio de la Cueva,
a specialist in biological conservation with CICESE, a scientific think tank near Ensenada.
"One of the things Baja California has to offer is natural beauty. And many people are willing to pay to enjoy that experience," he said.
Golf courses are not environmentally friendly, but instead "green asphalt," de la Cueva said.
"Once they destroy the landscape, it will never return."
With only 120 properties for sale, the developers have little inventory to sell compared with other golf course developments. But high prices,
comparable to ocean-view properties in La Jolla, could make it a difficult sale in what many economists call a worldwide recession that may last for
years, said Leonard Baron, a lecturer at SDSU's business school.
The local real estate expert also questions the location near Ensenada, which is not known as a world-class tourist spot, like Cabo San Lucas to the
south. Recent headlines about violence in Mexico also may make people question whether it is a wise investment.
There is also the larger issue of buying property in a foreign country and being subject to its laws.
"You're trying to create a place for people to go to that they wouldn't traditionally go to," Baron said. "Do I want to live in such a remote area?
What is the long-term viability? Those may be questions potential buyers are asking."
Oman said the property title is clear and title insurance will be offered through a U.S. company.
Further, the Mexican government has adopted reforms to real estate laws to avoid the nightmare scenarios some Americans have experienced in the
region, said Oscar Escobedo, Baja California's tourism secretary.
In 2000, more than 200 U.S. citizens at Punta Banda, which is a few miles from the Punta Brava site, were evicted after being caught in the middle of
a coastal property dispute between a communal landholding group and private owners. They were forcibly removed from their homes when the land was
restored to the private landowners.
The secretary said he is well aware of the tough economic climate. He noted that 18 developments between Tijuana and Ensenada have been halted for
financial reasons.
But Escobedo said he is confident Punta Brava, which is expected to be permitted within a few weeks, will succeed and bring a new class of high-end
tourism to the region as owners invite friends and business partners to play golf. He said he believes the current crime wave, which his office has
blamed for as much as a 70 percent drop in visitors across the Mexican state, will pass and that tourism will rebound. "This golf course has the
potential of putting Baja California on the map as a worldwide golf destination," Escobedo said in an interview. "I don't see the current violence
having a long-term impact. This is not the first time, nor the last, that Mexico goes through a crisis."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
jose.jimenez@uniontrib.com
Friends don't let friends drink white zinfandel.
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
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| Quote: | | "This golf course has the potential of putting Baja California on the map as a worldwide golf destination," |
well, chiite! then make it happen!!! 
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Bronco
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Posts: 168
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Well another fishery shot to hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Waste Discharges
Desalination plants produce liquid wastes that may contain all or some of the following constituents: high salt concentrations, chemicals used during
defouling of plant equipment and pretreatment, and toxic metals (which are most likely to be present if the discharge water was in contact with
metallic materials used in construction of the plant facilities). Liquid wastes may be discharged directly into the ocean, combined with other
discharges (e.g., power plant cooling water or sewage treatment plant effluent) before ocean discharge, discharged into a sewer for treatment in a
sewage treatment plant, or dried out and disposed of in a landfill. Desalination plants also produce a small amount of solid waste (e.g., spent
pretreatment filters and solid particles that are filtered out in the pretreatment process).
For example, the capacity of the City of Santa Barbara's desalination plant is 7,500 AF/yr (about 7.16 MGD). In May 1992, the plant produced 6.7 MGD
of product water and generated 8.2 MGD of waste brine with a salinity approximately 1.8 times that of seawater. An additional 1.7 MGD of brine was
generated from filter backwash. Assuming that concentrations of suspended solids in the seawater feed range from 10 to 50 ppm, approximately 1.7 to
5.1 cubic yards per day of solids were generated, which is equivalent to one to two truck-loads per week. (Source: Woodward-Clyde Consultants, EIR for
the City of Santa Barbara and Ionics, Inc.'s Temporary Emergency Desalination Project, March 1991.)
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
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I used to hear this same analysis of how the oil platforms off Santa Barbara were going kill the marine life there too. Ever been out to one? I have
been - lots of times.
Some of the best fishing I have ever done has been off the lower decks of Platform Heritage. Just have to be careful not to get in the way of all the
sea lions down there sunning themselves...
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Bronco
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Oil platform vs Golf course?
http://www.bahamasissues.com/archive/index.php/t-14382.html
BG, 1st it is not an analysis, second do some research on who benefits from off shore and who benefits from the fat cats playing golf that will ruin
the fishery and pristine property that belongs to the Mexican people, who again are being exploited. Kinda like Trump Dump that is now a sewer.
Still can't find your copters, of course your sources "they" will surely find them, possibly at Burbank or Santa Monica.
And yes I'v been a diver for 30 years, done the islands in SB and Long Beach. Great diving and great revenues.
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
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I grew up in the SoCal area and have spent a lot of time out on oil platforms through two different businesses I have owned. One of them was a
laboratory and we did a lot of waste water analysis. I am just telling you that the data you give is really a bit misleading. So are the volumes. An
average golf course today in Southern California uses about 200 thousand gallons, not 7.16 million gallons per day. This course WILL NOT have full,
seeded fairways and rough like most courses as they will use the natural terrain for much of the course design, with grass in the tee boxes, narrow
fairway landing areas and greens. A lot less grass in this design will mean even less water consumption.
The "toxic metals" you mentioned from the plant construction are at such minimum levels they are hard to detect even by ICP-MS. If they are picked up
you will find they are usually in the ppt range (parts per trillion). Do an analysis of your home tap water, vitamin supplements and the beer out of
that aluminum can. You may be surprised what you will find in the high ppb (parts per billion range) and a few in the ppm (parts per million)...
I am not pushing for this development to happen. I make NO MONEY whether it happens or not. I will NEVER be invited to play a round there when this
course actually opens to its members.
I just don't like to see data being thrown around that is not accurate or relevant for the sake of trying to make an argument. Bring me some good data
and we'll talk...
[Edited on 2-8-2009 by BajaGringo]
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Barry A.
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Just an observation from one who had to somehow find the reality in land management issues before we acted:
Many times the folks that are passionately behind the "environmental movement" over-state their positions, and exagerate their "scientific facts" to
the point of partially shooting themselves in the foot--------i.e. once the "spin" is discovered the "point" they are making is discredited to the
detriment of their cause, to put it mildly.
This is really a shame as their causes are sometimes (certainly not always) very worthwhile.
Barry
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
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Thanks Barry - that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Give real, accurate facts and folks might listen to you. Just throwing out data that is
misleading or "over-stated", trying to make an argument will eventually backfire.
If you have a valid argument based in real science and real numbers, make it. You will likely find a lot of supporters willing to listen and even win
over a few who originally weren't...
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
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A"pproximately 750 people will be employed during the construction phase, with 200 permanent jobs afterward. Potable water will be provided by a
desalination plant, and irrigation water will drain into retention ponds, which will then be recycled through a treatment plant, Oman said.
"Nothing goes into the ocean," Oman said."
HMMM - WHERE HAVE WE HEARD THAT BEFORE?
Where will the 750 construction workers live?
Have they started the desal/treatment plant?
Permits? What permits?
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BajaGringo
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My guess is the construction workers will be pulled from the local area. Ensenada has a large workforce needing construction work so I doubt any
housing will be needed for outside help. There is already one desal plant onsite that was built by the previous owner and is functioning. The plan is
to build a larger one to handle the course and development needs.
[Edited on 2-10-2009 by BajaGringo]
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bajabound2005
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doesn't that pretty much work to one full-time worker per house sold? Oh, please give me one of those!
Friends don't let friends drink white zinfandel.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajabound2005
doesn't that pretty much work to one full-time worker per house sold? Oh, please give me one of those! |
Just one? Remember...these are the people who taught Caltrans how to get a job done. One to work and three to watch.
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BajaGringo
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Then they will need a LOT of shovels to lean on...
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bajamigo
Super Nomad
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| Quote: |
"Nothing goes into the ocean," Oman said."
HMMM - WHERE HAVE WE HEARD THAT BEFORE?
Where will the 750 construction workers live?
Have they started the desal/treatment plant?
Permits? What permits? |
The desal plant has been in operation for some time. According to local fishermen, the mussel shoals around the discharge area (retention ponds have
not yet been built) are pretty much dead.
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wilderone
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More skepticism from the pros:
Article originally appeared on (http://www.geoffshackelford.com/).
“He’s on his third golf course contract"
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 at 07:32 PM
Geoff in Architecture, Tiger Woods
There really hasn't been a story questioning the direction and concept behind Tiger Woods' entry into the golf course design business until Paul
Sullivan filed this in-depth and skeptical take for the February issue of Portfolio.
I'd wager that the tone of this story is a product of a few elements. One, Sullivan does not need further access to Woods and therefore has filed a
fair and honest assessment that probably won't be well received by Woods. Two, Porfolio appears dedicated to serious dissection of issues in American
business along with only some of the nauseating deep-tissue ego massaging that the business community soaks up (and which as served it so well!). And
three, the recent economic crisis has exposed flaws in the early approach by Woods to go after unprecedented fees and big-scale, difficult projects,
though you may recall I detected some negative reaction after attending the impressive but over-the-top Punta Brava press conference in October.
A few points from the Sullivan piece. Get ready: big ego collision!
"Even Nicklaus, an admirer of Woods’ talent on the course, is skeptical about the new projects’ timing. “He’s on his third golf course contract,”
Nicklaus says, emphasizing the last word. “He hasn’t done any yet. I don’t think he’s finished any golf courses.”
But Jack's not paying attention or counting or anything like that. He's just a supportive elder father figure who loves it that this fee looks like a
bargain now!
"Woods is earning a flat fee to design and promote the courses. That money will be paid regardless of whether the associated real estate deals survive
the economic downturn."
This would seem to counter the belief that his inflated design fees are contingent upon real-estate sales. Smart move on Tiger's part, but it's hard
to imagine those willing to pay such fees coming along again for a very long time.
The setup is remarkably risky for investors, given that Woods has never completed a course design and that all the projects have built-in knocks—from
out-of-the-way locations to high costs. But Woods shows no signs that he’s daunted. “I’ve learned so much in these few months,” he says. “The amount
of meetings I’ve been in—you’d be shocked by the number of meetings I’ve been in, but that’s how you gain the knowledge: being in the meetings and
participating. You learn and you grow.”
That's great experience, but some of the best knowledge is learned watching another architect deal with this stuff and spending time in the field
observing construction. Because it's ultimately about building interesting holes. Pointing at a topo map is just a tiny part of that process. While I
detest the global behemoth that Nicklaus Design has become, cranking out too many Paint-By-Numbers designs, you have to hand it to Nicklaus for
putting in his time with Pete Dye and Desmond Muirhead before going out on his own. Tiger might have benefited from a similar apprenticeship. But he
usually proves pundits wrong, and he may well do the same with his golf architecture practice.
Still, this is encouraging:
Yet the Cliffs and Punta Brava people I spoke to have been surprised by how involved Woods has been. “I don’t think I expected the intensity,” Cliffs
V.P. Brazinski says. “When Tiger shows up, he puts on his boots, gets a bottle of water, and says, ‘Let’s go.’ When some of the other designers come,
they just want to see it by helicopter.”
Gee now, who has designed courses at The Cliffs? For those of you counting at home, Jack, two Tom Fazio courses and a Gary Player.
Sullivan also reports this next item which doesn't pass a smell test.
Woods has been planning his new courses for the past two years. His managers at IMG began brokering the deal for the project in Dubai in 2006. In
December of that year, a month after taking the helm of Tiger Woods Design, Bell was approached by Punta Brava backers about involving Woods in the
project. Bell toured the site in January 2007 but took another year to commit. A few months later, in April 2007, Woods was approached by the Cliffs
team.
And...
A couple of days after winning the 2008 U.S. Open, with much of the sports world focused on the state of his knee, Woods was in Mexico to vet Punta
Brava’s new layout for the 22nd time—more than five times as many site visits as most brand-name golf course architects do.
Now, think about that. He's not signed on the dotted line until January 2008. So between then and June, Tiger got on board Tiger Airship 1, and landed
then later took off at beautiful Ensanada International Airport 22 different times? And remember, the prior year he was playing a full schedule and
spending a lot of time with his newborn, so even if those 22 "site visits" stretched back into 2007, he would have had to be spending almost no time
on any other activities to squeeze so many site visits into his schedule.
Now, 22 days on site may be what was meant, but there's a huge difference between 22 days and 22 site visits, even if you are traveling via private
jet.
The story also features a video that shows a lot of the staging and other nonsense that goes into a Woods site visit. Doesn't look like much fun.
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wilderone
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More details on the business: Note: "While precise numbers are a closely guarded secret, Golf World estimates that for Punta Brava alone, Woods’
firm will be paid $25 million. If that figure is even close to correct, it is unprecedented, given that a backer of one of the courses puts the cost
of the entire Punta Brava venture at about $100 million. Top course architects like Tom Fazio rarely earn fees of more than $2 million."
http://www.entrepreneur.com/growyourbusiness/portfoliocombus...
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Bronco
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Where is Carlos Slim?
You want a golf course, let Carlos talk to Woods make a deal that benefits the Mexican people, inhances Cantu,and the whole Punta Banda area. Have a
nice boat that can run folk to Ensenada for dinner, dancing and contribute to the local economy. A little more work on our boat ramp at La Bufadora
and we can get the tourist back for some trinkets-of course on a mini-luxury air foil etc.
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lizard lips
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DON'T WANT IT. DON'T NEED IT, AND DON'T WANT ANY MORE CHANGE IN PUNTA BANDA. I LIKED IT THE WAY IT WAS BACK IN THE 50ies............SO ALL OF YOU THAT
HAVE BUILT HOMES IN THE PUNTA BANDA AREA SINCE 1960 PLEASE BULLDOZE YOUR HOME DOWN AND GET OUT!!!!!!!!!
(I am now off my soapbox-----The same one Bajaguy uses!)
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