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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Wonderful news Taco de Baja!!!
That does make the mission connection more realistic... |
Not really, David. I have seen dates growing in very remote areas. Probably "planted" by birds, coyotes, vaqueros, or Nomads.. . The fact that there are no European artifacts at the site: glazed ceramics, roof
tiles, floor tiles, buttons, glass, coins, etc (At least, none noted in the PCAS article on the site I sent you) suggest to me it is primarily a
Native American site. The walls could have been built by vaqueros, but since there is no European debris, I can't see any European habitation
component.
There really should be something. For example, when I visited the San Pedro Martir Mission site with Jack Swards, Pappy, Mexitron, and others there
was quite a bit of European debris in the area from the mission era. |
I am not saying there aren't any, but as I remember I have NEVER seen a date palm growing in ANY of the canyons of Baja Norte, and I have been in
quite a few canyons over the many years. I tend to agree with David (??) that this date palm was "planted" by a person, and probably not an
aboriginal type. Could have been a vaquero, or herder guy, tho, in the relatively recent past. Still, those walls covered by desert
varnish-------------THAT is what intrigues me.
Barry
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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The palm really just indicates a year round water source. I can imagine that the area may have been pretty lush(for a desert fan) for god knows how
long so many years ago..
Gardner noted thick growth there that indicated the spring was still viable not long ago by Baja standards. Who knows what it looked like in it's
day.
The evidence dug up nearby does not point to any type of agricultural persuits. I would imagine that if that were to be true, then artifacts(seeds,
etc.) would have been found en masse in inhabited places.
Since this place has yet to be proven to be researched we should wait till more concrete evidence can sum up the purpose, function and timeline.
The clues are surely there.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Barry A.
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Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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My fear, Sharks, is that NOTHING will be done as far as actual 'research' there, since that is the norm in Baja by the "powers that be", for whatever
reason. People like Dr. Ritter are the one's that really DO get things done, on a volunteer basis, out of love for the subject and the expertise to
accomplish it. But he only has so much time to volunteer.
I believe that David K. also makes a great contribution, in a different way, but still just as significant as Dr. Ritter's, and actually probably
effects more people.
Hopefully David's "re-discovery", and his bringing attention to it, will spur some professional Archaeological activity there in the very near future
(but I doubt it). In the mean time, many NOMADS are gaining a lot of interesting info, and that is good, IMO.
I know that I sure want to visit the site, and speculate about what happened there------all very exciting!!
Barry
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wilderone
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Registered: 2-9-2004
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"My fear, Sharks, is that NOTHING will be done as far as actual 'research' there, since that is the norm in Baja by the "powers that be", for whatever
reason."
My fear is that INAH and other expeditions will arrive and, as per their modus operendi, will dig and disturb and remove every single thing they find
and put it in a box never to see the light of day again. Much better that such sites are left intact, by visitors and all, so that the site can be
appreciated by all. I doubt that the site contains anything that hasn't been seen elsewhere and all conclusions can be drawn therefrom without
digging and disturbing the site any further. E.g., the mystery of the sleeping cirlces, once known, will apply to them all.
As explained by Dr. Mathes, Baja's archaeology has not been at the forefront of INAH's and others' attention because there are other sites worldwide
that yield much richer results - both in tangible treasures (gold, sculpture, gems, written language) and more relatively exciting knowledge, and
given the choice by the limited number of archaeologists, they have overlooked Baja CA's scattered and humble remains in order to be a part of and
make a name for themselves elsewhere.
I have seen INAH at work in Yucatan doing wonderful work at Mayan sites - there is still much to excavate and recreate - it's a painstaking process.
I would like to know about these sites, but so much that comes even from experienced archaeologists and ethnologists who only study one small site
only conclude uncertainties and "possibilities" from their work. Grant money only buys so much.
I do think though, that with some practiced documentation by amateurs sent to individuals who care to study them (like Dr. Mathes or Ritter), some
advances can be made without field work - especially since there are so many small, scattered sites in Baja.
This board should have a place where photos of sites can be posted in one place - maybe some similarities, conclusions, etc can eventually be drawn
from them.
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David K
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Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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I posted first in this forum (Baja News) as it was in a way big news to us who want to hear of these lost or forgotten sites being found.
Most of the photos went in the Baja Trip Reports forum as part of my multi part trip report.
The final place I have not really added much to, but would fulfill Wilderone's idea is to put all the photos I took there in the Historic Interests
and Literature forum. What I stated there, before the trip and maybe what clued Sharksbaja into my quest was the Choral Pepper unpublished chapter on
Santa Maria Magdalena from her m/s that she gave me.
Without all of us sharing details then the truth remains buried or forgotten... It is all of us who work together that makes Baja that much richer!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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New web page URL for the site: http://vivabaja.com/109 thanks to my web host! It is much easier and shorter than my 'community-2' page builder site!
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Mexitron
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Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Mood: Happy!
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The subject of sheep comes up quite a bit, as they or cows seem to be the only animals able to be corraled by a low rock wall. Did the mission folks
have sheep which could survive the heat in that area? And what kind of grazing is there for them? I know goats will eat anything but sheep seem to
be in more verdant, and cooler, climes. I'm just guessing since I don't know a lot about livestock but maybe someone can enlighten the situation.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Looking at the area it appears that at one time water was available for quite a period. That would mean food for animals as well.
The problem with that scenario is, where do you draw the line between habitation by those that built the rings and those that built the wall if in
fact the wall was built only hundreds of years ago not thousands.
Domesticated sheep were brought to the New World as early as 1494. Cortes had sheep in Mexico during the 1500s and it's possible I suppose that the
introduction of sheep could have occured then.
We'll have to research that. Sheep either domestic or Bighorn we're not mentioned in the diets at the Animas sites. I wonder if the isotope samples
that indicate mammals could have overlooked sheep as a possible contributing isotope factor . Mainly because wild sheep were around 1000 years ago.
Evidence points to an arid climate 1000-6000 years ago. It seems not to much has changed in Baja over the millennia. Cactus fruit like pitaya and
agave and seeds were main staples in the ancients diet.
So were shellfish and mammals. Dr. Ritters pdf files are copy protected unfortunately so I can't cut and paste from it but one would conclude that
the area of BOLA and Animas have similar and connected historical value.
You can conclude a lot from his papers. I would like to ask him if they have identified Bighorn or domestic sheep (or cattle) remains at any site
that was preoccupied 1000-6000 years ago.
That might add weight to the notion that the walls were indeed built to contain or direct sheep (or cattle).
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Dr. Ritter and I have just had some email exchanges about the next site in Baja he is going to study, as I have been there, and am assisting him on it
as much as I can/ he needs. (no, I won't tell you where, lol)
Corky, I will be happy to forward your question to him the next time!
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
(no, I won't tell you where, lol)
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What, a double standard? (No way, not you!)
| Quote: |
Corky, I will be happy to forward your question to him the next time!.
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That would be kind of you. I guess he decided against signing on here. Too bad.,I don't really want to go thru you and get something back paraphrased.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
(no, I won't tell you where, lol)
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What, a double standard? (No way, not you!)
| Quote: |
Corky, I will be happy to forward your question to him the next time!.
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That would be kind of you. I guess he decided against signing on here. Too bad.,I don't really want to go thru you and get something back paraphrased.
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Well, can you blame him? Who would want to join a place where anyone who has different ideas than you gets jumped on and mis-quoted in a feeding
frenzie of loonies!
Seriously, he read the posts here regarding the site discovery we made... if he continues to read or decides to post himself, I don't know.
As for your question for him, I am not sure what you are saying? Yes, 'it would be kind of me' (ie. do it)? OR: No, you 'don't really want to go
through me to ask him'?
As always, I am happy to help anyone in the pursuit of Baja knowledge, adventure or exploration!
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avid
Junior Nomad
Posts: 41
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: SW Oregon
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Mood: adventurous
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
The subject of sheep comes up quite a bit, as they or cows seem to be the only animals able to be corraled by a low rock wall. Did the mission folks
have sheep which could survive the heat in that area? And what kind of grazing is there for them? I know goats will eat anything but sheep seem to
be in more verdant, and cooler, climes. I'm just guessing since I don't know a lot about livestock but maybe someone can enlighten the situation.
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I found references to the Spanish Missions in California (including Baja) having 150,000 sheep. Sheep are very hardy and adaptable. I have seen them
in the Red Desert in Wyoming and the soggy wet Willamette Valley during Oregon winters. In the Western US they generally would go to the high country
during the summer months. There are different breeds available for almost every habitat. The Spanish would have brought Merino's developed in the
Mediterranean. They are graziers not browsers like goats. Sheep would prefer grass and herbaceous forbs.
I hope that I didn't suggest that rock walls would corral Bighorns. However I would imagine a rock wall could influence their behavior. For instance,
perhaps the Natives built blinds and wanted the Bighorns to become accustomed to moving in certain patterns. They would throw up a rock wall and the
Bighorns or other mammals might have avoided going near it, let alone over it.
I was thinking about the sleeping circles with shells. What a perfect place to drop off a herder. There was transportable fast food right at hand.
avid
Ashland, OR
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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It had to be great to find that site and to see it rather untouched, and the pictures showing how little the plants grow are very interesting.
Sharing all of this with Dr. Ritter is also great, but I really don't understand why you don't share the information with INAH.
I know you have not been happy with them in the past, but they are the official Mexican agency, and this site is in Mexico.
JMHO-- I know our friend who works for PROFEPA in protecting the preserve and the environment, likes working with official agencies from the US, but
he does feel like the Mexican agencies should take the lead.
Diane
[Edited on 1-18-2009 by jdtrotter]
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Sorry David, that came out wrong I guess. Yes it would be kind of you to ask him. You understand info is always better from the "horses mouth" so to
speak. I meant only that I'd like to discuss this with him personally. Afterall, he is the authority and I don't have a way to talk with him outside
this forum.
Lately you have been jumped on a little but it's just the normal course the forum takes. The more you post the more you get stepped on. It's not that
bad is it? I think the forum has been more civil than I've ever seen it, no?
Btw, who are these loonies?
Avid, I hear ya! My point was to see if there is any evidence of comingled artifacts or evidence that would support the fact that sheep were indeed
part of the diet. Trying to figure out if habitation was limited to the circle builders or the more recent dwellers(wall builders?) who did have
access to Spanish sheep. Certainly interesting to ponder those walls.
[Edited on 1-18-2009 by Sharksbaja]
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thanks Diane (for civil discussion here) and for the comment on the posts...
As for this: "Sharing all of this with Dr. Ritter is also great, but I really don't understand why you don't share the information with INAH."
The way I see it is first, the site was shared with the Baja world in July of 1966... I just went back for a new look once I knew were to go. The
people of Mexico should know these places better than I, I had no way of knowing if they haven't already been there.
The site had no arrowheads, pottery, bones... or any 'artifacts' beyond the rocks and one shallow metate. In other words, it looks picked over.
Finally, if my numerous posts and photos here on Nomad and a couple of other Baja sites on the World Wide Web (plus a Discover Baja newsletter article
in a future edition) isn't enough 'sharing' for INAH... Then ???
If you think I should notify them more directly, I will... no problema!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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CLOSE UP of 'Chute/ Slide'
Here is a zoom in on that cleared 'chute' or slide that I thought may have been where supplies for the Spanish fort on top (or whatever was on top)
were dragged or pulled up by rope...
This is very steep... we climbed up/ and back down just to the left of it, because using rocks to hold or step on seemed easier, it was that steep.
What do you think???
Here is the full image... note my Tacoma at the bottom for scale...
[Edited on 1-18-2009 by David K]
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Thanks Diane (for civil discussion here) and for the comment on the posts...
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You never miss a chance---well done.
Well it sounds like the site has been well picked over which is too bad. Maybe it has already been studied by the INAH or the like. The looting of
these types of sites by locals, unfortunately, happens everywhere.
Regardless, finding something like that after so many years of looking for a specific site had to be fun.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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It was... very much...! I wanted to see the place since I read about it in high school (when I bought Choral's 1973 book) and did a report on the Baja
missions for my 11th grade California History class in 1975.
I utilized Choral's book for my report (mission photos) ... Got an A for it. So, in 1998 I contacted Choral to ask if she had extra copies so I could
get a replacement... That is how our friendship statred. It was great, she was one of my 'Baja heroes'
Here is my worn and sacrificed copy:
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Here is the 1975 revised edition... notice the slight change in the title? Choral didn't have any extras, so I found this one online.
Choral autographed them both for me.
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DianaT
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Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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Interesting picture of San Borja on the front of that book----good for comparison to today.
I am always a little ambivalent about missions. I love visiting old historical sites, and I have always enjoyed the missions in both Californias.
The ambivalence comes from understanding the brutality of the system in regards to the indigenous populations.
I do cringe when I see the California 4th grade mission project done year after year, the one that the students used to do until the parents started
competing. They teach such a fantasized version of that part of California history.
Good luck on finding more information about the wall, etc.
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