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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8946
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
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Mood: Pole Line Road postponed due to injury
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I believe that I have some old copies of FOURWHEELER and 4 Wheel and Off Road to loan to TW. The 4WD magazines explain traction-aided differentials
every 2-3 years.
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Fernweh
Nomad
Posts: 444
Registered: 2-24-2011
Location: Centenario, BCS
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 4x4abc
| Quote: | Originally posted by Fernweh
Quote from the Battle at Waterloo:
"I wish it would be already night and the Prussians are coming"
4X4abc where are you? We need you to clarify this 4x4 or not to be...... |
Karl,
I can't really help in this case. It's going all over the place.
Traction control, gas consumption, locked up rears, differential locks, traction, spinning tires, low range, questionable observations, nobody knows
what he is talking about - my head is spinning.
Need traction control for my head
a few drinks will do
Going for Margaritas now.
With those 2 stunning Mexican girls
just came back from the beach with them
sunshine, Champagne and prosciutto - divine!
don't care about lockers and/or traction control |
Sorry to hear this.....
Please don't rub it in, with the beach and so....
Harald, thanks for the picture. Which one is the stunning one?
You drink Champagne with lime? Strange.....
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 4x4abc
| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
Traction control works the same on all vehicles. When the wheel sensor on any wheel shows any wheel going faster than the other wheels it applies the
brake to that wheel. If you are going around a curve the outside wheels will go faster than the inside wheels and thus apply the brake to the outside
wheels. Now how fast and sensitive the system is on a particular brand may be another question. Turn on your traction control and drive it over any
road course especially where there are curves and I'll bet your gas milage is less. |
excuse my English here, Sir! But that's BS. Pure BS.
If traction control would slow down the outside wheel during a turn, you would be forced to to drive straight.
The engineers are not that stupid. The wheel speed differences during a turn are tolerated without traction control interference.
Only wheel speed differences created by traction loss will trigger traction control - and sometimes stability control at the same time.
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If what I said is BS then explain why he gets better gas mileage when it is turned off. I still say it's because the system is applying the brakes.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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All new Toyotas have traction control (TRAC) and stability control (VSC, from Bosch) that use the computer and ABS brake system to a) help you get
moving in slippery conditions and b) help you stay driving straight ahead when you vehicle wants to go into a spin-out.
Since fuel economy is all important now, it would surprise me if TRAC turned off provided better mileage, but I am willing to try that. By pressing
the VSC Off switch for about 5 seconds (while stopped), you can turn off VSC and TRAC. This must be done after anytime the car has been turned off.
VSC will come back on automatically if the system senses you are about to spin out or wreck your car. Those Germans at Bosch are some smart people!
VSC has been called the greatest safety device since the seat belt...
As for traction aid, the difference between my '05 and '10 Tacomas is like night and day... The '10 with TRAC limited slip on all 4 tires makes my
truck easily go beyond where my previous one would need either deflating the tires or going in low range with the locker on.
[Edited on 4-16-2012 by David K]
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18380
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 4x4abc
| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
Traction control works the same on all vehicles. When the wheel sensor on any wheel shows any wheel going faster than the other wheels it applies the
brake to that wheel. If you are going around a curve the outside wheels will go faster than the inside wheels and thus apply the brake to the outside
wheels. Now how fast and sensitive the system is on a particular brand may be another question. Turn on your traction control and drive it over any
road course especially where there are curves and I'll bet your gas milage is less. |
excuse my English here, Sir! But that's BS. Pure BS.
If traction control would slow down the outside wheel during a turn, you would be forced to to drive straight.
The engineers are not that stupid. The wheel speed differences during a turn are tolerated without traction control interference.
Only wheel speed differences created by traction loss will trigger traction control - and sometimes stability control at the same time.
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vehicle stability control is noticeable when it engages. in my toyota 4runner, you can hear/feel brakes engage when stability control takes over, and
it very rarely engages when driving on pavement. it often engages off road where tires experience differential slip, but can be disengaged in certain
4wd settings.
you all are wrong to think it engages brakes of outside wheel when doing normal cornering on paved street.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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"you all are wrong to think it engages brakes of outside wheel when doing normal cornering on paved street. "
All ??
I know it doesn't do that... The brakes are only used after a tire spins to limit the slip, or to straighten the vehicle if it is sliding out of
control.
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
Posts: 1913
Registered: 4-14-2004
Location: Behind the Orange Curtain, CA
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Mood: Dreamin' of Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
All new Toyotas have traction control (TRAC) and stability control (VSC, from Bosch) that use the computer and ABS brake system to a) help you get
moving in slippery conditions and b) help you stay driving straight ahead when you vehicle wants to go into a spin-out.
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This "stupid" traction control's only purpose seems to be to annoy the driver and passengers by insistently beeping to indicate that the tires are
spinning when going up a sand wash. 
My all manual 1996 Tacoma (front hubs, transmission, and t-case) with open differentials, does just as well in the washes without the "beep-beep-beep,
beep-beep, beep, beep-beep-beep." 
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
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I don't know how sesitive these systems are. Maybe the better gas mileage is because of a problem and maybe it's too sensitive when on. I do know the
traction control on the Yukon applies the brakes so to me it stands to reason that with it on and he gets less gas mileage it must have something to
do with the brakes. I have reached out to GMC and asked them to explain why and when I get an answer I'll post it.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
All new Toyotas have traction control (TRAC) and stability control (VSC, from Bosch) that use the computer and ABS brake system to a) help you get
moving in slippery conditions and b) help you stay driving straight ahead when you vehicle wants to go into a spin-out.
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This "stupid" traction control's only purpose seems to be to annoy the driver and passengers by insistently beeping to indicate that the tires are
spinning when going up a sand wash.
My all manual 1996 Tacoma (front hubs, transmission, and t-case) with open differentials, does just as well in the washes without the "beep-beep-beep,
beep-beep, beep, beep-beep-beep." |
Yah, I know... you either get used to it, disable the beeper, or turn off the traction control (but then you can't drive in the sand as easily without
deflating).
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8946
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pole Line Road postponed due to injury
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
VSC will come back on automatically if the system senses you are about to spin out or wreck your car. Those Germans at Bosch are some spart people!
VSC has been called the greatest safety device since the seat belt... |
As you know, I drive a Honda Pilot to work and to the grocery store or restaurant when the Wife is riding with me. Although, it is a front wheel
drive vehicle, it also has some sort of Vehicle Stability Control system. When you try to get the slightest bit wild on sand or dirt, the system
kicks in, and applies brakes here, and slows you down. Now, I'm a responsible driver, but that takes all of the fun out of any spontaneity I might be
after.
Why, then is VSC a good thing on an off-road driven, 4WD vehicle?
Can this be completely defeated by pulling a fuse in order that you can enjoy some real fun? (i.e. - The Dunes) 
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
Posts: 1913
Registered: 4-14-2004
Location: Behind the Orange Curtain, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dreamin' of Baja
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Maybe all this auto braking explains the $1,000 brake job my sister needed on her FJ-Cruiser with 30,000 miles to replace the rotors and pads at the
Toyota Stealership.
Not under warranty, BTW.
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8946
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pole Line Road postponed due to injury
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Maybe all this auto braking explains the $1,000 brake job my sister needed on her FJ-Cruiser with 30,000 miles to replace the rotors and pads at the
Toyota Stealership.
Not under warranty, BTW. |
Not under warranty??? My Rubicon had a 30,000 mi. bumper to bumper warranty (in '03). My rotors and pads on the Rubicon are both original - the pads
need replacement, but the rotors are in decent shape with 125,000 original miles.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Cooke
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
VSC will come back on automatically if the system senses you are about to spin out or wreck your car. Those Germans at Bosch are some spart people!
VSC has been called the greatest safety device since the seat belt... |
As you know, I drive a Honda Pilot to work and to the grocery store or restaurant when the Wife is riding with me. Although, it is a front wheel
drive vehicle, it also has some sort of Vehicle Stability Control system. When you try to get the slightest bit wild on sand or dirt, the system
kicks in, and applies brakes here, and slows you down. Now, I'm a responsible driver, but that takes all of the fun out of any spontaneity I might be
after.
Why, then is VSC a good thing on an off-road driven, 4WD vehicle?
Can this be completely defeated by pulling a fuse in order that you can enjoy some real fun? (i.e. - The Dunes) |
1) Safety First (as Americans are sue happy)... it applies brakes for only milli seconds to keep you from spinning out, not to 'slow you down' (at
least in a Toyota).
2) You should have a button to turn off the VSC and traction control (Toyotas do).
3) By limiting slip, power diverts to the tires with traction instead of spinning a hole.
I tested my truck at Bahia Santa Maria when it was just a month old (in front of Rob and Connie's). First thing I did was drive onto the beach (dry
sand above the high tide line, in front of their house) with the tires at 32 psi. In the past, I would be limited as to how far I could go with
momentum before digging in.
This truck, with traction control, didn't dig in... I could stop and go on the deep sand.
To see if this was some weird condition and not the traction control, I turned the TRAC (traction control) off and tried to drive in 4WD-HI with open
differentials only... and I went about 15 feet and got stuck... no more forward motion stuck.
To try and get out of the stuck without digging or letting any air out of the tires, I tried the A-TRAC device (Active Traction Control), in low
range... which is Toyota's super traction system that can be best described as 'automatic lockers front and rear'. I was able to drive out of the
stuck, then I returned to high range with TRAC once again back on, and continued to drive with ease.
So, with the new truck on a bottomless sand beach, I was amazed by TRAC and A-TRAC the same day.
As a follow-up, the next time down, the weather was hotter and I had a heavy load of camping gear, going onto Shell Island... and I did have to air
down. So weight in the truck and perhaps higher sand temerature dictates needing to air down.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Maybe all this auto braking explains the $1,000 brake job my sister needed on her FJ-Cruiser with 30,000 miles to replace the rotors and pads at the
Toyota Stealership.
Not under warranty, BTW. |
That is just crazy, I do have the dealership work on my truck, and a full front brake job (new rotors and pads) was under $300, as I recall. I would
question what else was done and she can easily contact the district manager for false charges.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Cooke
| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Maybe all this auto braking explains the $1,000 brake job my sister needed on her FJ-Cruiser with 30,000 miles to replace the rotors and pads at the
Toyota Stealership.
Not under warranty, BTW. |
Not under warranty??? My Rubicon had a 30,000 mi. bumper to bumper warranty (in '03). My rotors and pads on the Rubicon are both original - the pads
need replacement, but the rotors are in decent shape with 125,000 original miles. |
Ken, brakes and oil changes are normal maintenance items that are not warranty... Unless the brakes were bad, noisy, shakey, etc.
The Toyota has a 3 year/ 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty and a 60,000 mile drivetrain warranty. My truck has just passed the 36,000 mile mark,
and there has been not one warranty issue/ part failure, etc. after the drip that was fixed when the truck was brand new (Toyotas aren't supposed to
drip a thing other than AC water)!
You have seen how hard I am on the truck (all three of my Toyotas)... and the quality control and strength of parts used is nothing short of
amazing... specially when compared to other brands.
[Edited on 4-17-2012 by David K]
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8946
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pole Line Road postponed due to injury
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NEW IS NOT BETTER!
But, how are your brakes holding up with all of that traction assisting you have going on?
This Toyota did great with simple positive locking differentials. Very cool, vintage truck as well!
No VSC in Colombia (just trouble for our troops and Secret Service!)
VSC and ATRAC were not options when this Ambulance was made.
Snorkel, check.
Stock winch-mount bumper w/8,000# winch, check.
Solid front axle - no Inferior Front Suspension (IFS), check.
Built and ready for Baja, check.
VSC/A-TRAC traction sensing control, NOT!
VSC/A-TRAC, check
Air Conditioning, check
Four doors, check
Low water-line clearance/short breather tubes, check.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Running boards are not recommended where I take my Tacoma... No matter if that is a Toyota Hilux or not!
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Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5901
Registered: 7-18-2011
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First time I heard that "beep-beep-beep, beep-beep, beep, beep-beep-beep" sound in my tundra it scared the crap out of me. I was just outside of
Datil with a 2 week old truck wondering if that warning was telling me I was about break down or something. "Honey, get out the owners manual and
tell me what 'auto LSD' means - Am I about to be dosed with LSD?". Fortunately it was just some loose sand.....
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ateo
First time I heard that "beep-beep-beep, beep-beep, beep, beep-beep-beep" sound in my tundra it scared the crap out of me. I was just outside of
Datil with a 2 week old truck wondering if that warning was telling me I was about break down or something. "Honey, get out the owners manual and
tell me what 'auto LSD' means - Am I about to be dosed with LSD?". Fortunately it was just some loose sand..... |
We were with BajaRob and Connie, trying to find some fossil beds south of San Felipe in my new Tacoma... and in the sand washes, fish tailing around
(good fun), the VSC was doing the beep-beep beep... like it was telling me (as in HAL in 2001 A Space Odyssey): "What are you doing Dave?", "Perhaps
you should re-think your driving style Dave?"
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8946
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pole Line Road postponed due to injury
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
and in the sand washes, fish tailing around (good fun), the VSC was doing the beep-beep beep... like it was telling me (as in HAL in 2001 A Space
Odyssey): "What are you doing Dave?", "Perhaps you should re-think your driving style Dave?" |
Sorry, but that would just drive me crazy. Don't the TTORA guys have a bypass for that? Perhaps a fuse which can be pulled out in order to avoid
this noise?
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