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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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on my way, ware yo is???
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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lingililingili
Nomad
Posts: 449
Registered: 2-24-2008
Location: La Paz, Bahia Asuncion
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Well, here goes my two cents worth:
Having retired from the Home Show business and now having the internet sales going, I can honestly say that I totally dislike people who try to haggle
with me. There are three cultures that come to mind in the U.S. that do this. We post our prices because that is what we expect people to pay. I
refuse to haggle either with customers or as a customer. Since we have moved to Mexico I do find myself comparing Mexican prices to U.S. prices and
usually feel like I am getting a better deal than in the States.
So, is the practice of charging gringos more than locals okay? No, but I don't think that will ever change. If I don't like the price, I just don't
buy.
•Life is just one damned thing after another
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
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Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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As we are all learning this gem of a cross-border dilema has many facets. We have been pounding away at some of them -- tiny flat places around the
center. Now to the emerald cut; even that is cut in two:
1. The Culteral Chasm and
2. Those cheapskates who would grab a tiny blanket off the cold, blue corpse of a Peruvian baby because it was authentic and unattended.
Second group first:
Piojo
I’m not too proud to tell you that I use a thesaurus. I write short stories, books and articles for magazines, ezines, etc. With Google, Roget and
Brittanica at hand you would think I could find the perfect word most of the time. Not this time. The English word has not yet been coined for this
particular kind of character trait.
The word I have been searching for needs to describe the mind set displayed by those adults who must have a bargain in everything they purchase.
Greed and Avarice describe another condition; those who must have wealth, those who are only happy when they have more than they need, more than they
could possibly use, eat, drink, consume, utilize, enjoy.
Cheap doesn’t come close. It’s an adjective describing things, not people. A cheapskate is a miser. Stingy means someone who is unwilling to share
what he has. Most of the time I hope my articles will not evoke “letters”. This time I’m hoping for letters. I hope I can read them; if there is a
proper word out there, it’s in another language and I hope those Jews, Italians, Germans, etc, will get back to me.
It remains a mystery to me that we don’t already have a word close at hand. Surely we recognize the condition; Priceline and lots of other sales
gimmicks thrive on the growing phenomenon. On a commercial services level setting your own price, naming the highest price you will pay comes close
to the logic: “I’m only satisfied about the price if I think I’ve taken advantage of the seller”. The need to cheat the seller runs so deep that
often the value of the thing or service takes a back seat to the necessary huge gap between what the buyer wanted and what these people will pay.
All you proud Anglophiles out there: before you begin to run your laundry list of English words I might have missed, please wait until I define, in
broad terms, the characters who demonstrate the condition.
Allow me to eliminate those casual bargain-hunters who don’t fit the pattern. We all like a bargain. Please drop from the list those of us who pay
retail most of time but seek out bargains when and where we can.
The millions of people I’m talking about are those who delight in finding an uninformed or distressed seller. These folks are unable to pay the
asking price for anything — never have, never will. For example one of them might learn that a boat worth $20,000 on today’s market, in the region of
the sale, in the visible and contractual state of condition equal to that value, is being sold by a person in monetary distress. The buyer discovers
that for a quick cash sale the seller might accept $10,000. It is at this stage that our guy will offer $5,000. He makes it clear his offer is firm,
shows the seller the cash, does not even flinch when the boat sells to another bargain hunter for $8,500.
By way of demonstration let me shine a light on some of my neighbors with the trait. This little scene could happen in any of a dozen or more
garages in this little Mexican village. I stop by Fred or Bill’s to say hello, maybe share a beer. Fred is cleaning a gas generator with a solvent
and a rag.
I said “New generator?”
“No. No. I bought this about six months ago in Santiago. Some old Mexican codger was sick, his kid got the word around, I went over there, picked
this sucker up for $250. The new Hondas in this model are $2,200.”
“Great buy. Just what you needed for down here.”
Fred said “No, I got two others. Bigger, quieter. I’m just saving this one for some time when the storms hit, when the hotels need more juice. I
can maybe unload the thing for $1,800 or so. Depends on how bad the storm was, how bad they need it.”
I suppose what sent me looking for the word was my brief encounter with a realty bargain hunter. Lots of gringos stop by my gate to ask directions,
ask if I know of any good deals around here on homes or land. They are all looking for a bargain. This particular guy sticks in my mind.
He said he was from Canada, really liked our little village, wanted to buy a lot here, build a house or buy a little Mexican house like mine, fix it
up the way I did. He wanted to know about land ownership. I told him there were several 1/4 acre lots in town for about $25,000 or so, some with an
ocean view. I explained that the realty purchase process would cost him about $7,000 initially (Mexican purchase agreement, notario fees, honorarios,
etc) and about $400 per year for the annual cost to maintain a bank trust. He just shook his head in disbelief, said he wasn’t interested in that
kind of deal in Mexico.
Just for fun I told him I had a Mexican pal who had a nice lot with an ocean view, was just tired of the responsibilities, just wanted to dump it,
get rid of it. I said “He’ll just sign the deed over to you, be done with it. No money involved. You can have it.”
He said “Do I have to pay fees?”
“Sure, I just told you, around $7,000 to get the bank trust, to know that it’s in trust for 50 years in your name with a Mexican bank, guaranteed by
the bank and the government. The trust is renewable so you can pass it on if you like, or sell it, rent it, whatever.”
He said “No, no thanks. I’ll pass. See you later.”
While I was telling this story for months about a guy who was so cheap he wouldn’t take a piece of free land “he’d steal a hot stove, go back for the
smoke” kind of guy, I missed the point. Without the distressed or uninformed seller there can be no joy. My joke implied that the seller would be
better off without the property. No deal for these folks; no sad and bleeding seller crying in the night at his lose, no joy for my buyer. So, it
turns out these folks could find a big gold nugget in a stream, never say a word about it. Pay 10% of the value for a wrist watch they don’t need,
will probably never sell, leave the poor seller, the dumb bastard wondering how this slick guy got the better of them — now that’s a story worth the
telling.
I asked a couple of my Mexican friends if there might be a word in Spanish for these people. They suggested piojoso. Not quite what I was after. A
piojo is a louse, as in body louse. That would translate to lousy. When they say it they are referring to a mean, stingy person, clean or dirty. If I
don’t get any positive feedback on this thing pretty soon, I’ll just have to make up a word. Putting a proper handle on these people, for me, would
be just like tagging a big marlin, releasing it. Like a sign: “caught ya.”
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3495
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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Whining? Get over it!
In Waikiki, or Cabo along the Marina, expect to pay $9.00 for a marg or daqairi You're paying for the view, the ambiance, the stool. Locals
don't pay that price probably because they don't want to or can't afford it. It's the ''Tourist'' price.
In a land (MX) where the overall ''average'' annual income is $500 - $2,000, there isn't ONE tourist hanging out who isn't considered rich. That
could be defined by the newer car you drive, or paying $4.50 for a gallon of organic milk in Todos. The stores in Todos that carry the items
wanted by gringos -- tofu, soy milk, etc. -- charge gringo prices -- and I for one pay with gratitude that I can get the things I want. The locals
either don't buy this stuff or buy for less. It's not a level playing field folks. You DON'T have to pay high prices. You CAN do without.
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13045
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Thank you for the grammar tips...when I begin a reply, I have no idea it will turn into a rant...it just spills out of my fingertips fast with no
breath for a paragraph indent...but I'll try..
thank you all for bearing with me on my attempt at explaining the unexplainable
I would like to take back my words about staying in the USA...for fully understanding and appreciating the cultural nuances can only come about by
spending more time here immersed in the culture
By the way...the constuction workers who worked in the states do NOT charge american prices...probably half of what you would pay there...but do
charge a bit more than the substandard work that most mexicans will be happy with.
I love a good deal for sure but find it sad when people take advantage of a family who need to sell something for a family emergency and only get a
couple hundred bucks for a couple thousand dollar item...not fair.
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TonyC
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Posts: 421
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
Thank you for the grammar tips...when I begin a reply, I have no idea it will turn into a rant...it just spills out of my fingertips fast with no
breath for a paragraph indent...but I'll try..
thank you all for bearing with me on my attempt at explaining the unexplainable
I would like to take back my words about staying in the USA...for fully understanding and appreciating the cultural nuances can only come about by
spending more time here immersed in the culture
By the way...the constuction workers who worked in the states do NOT charge american prices...probably half of what you would pay there...but do
charge a bit more than the substandard work that most mexicans will be happy with.
I love a good deal for sure but find it sad when people take advantage of a family who need to sell something for a family emergency and only get a
couple hundred bucks for a couple thousand dollar item...not fair. |
Shari, I'm a newbie, and for me you are a local girl. I want, and need your insight, both seen,and unseen in this culture which I've fallen in love
with....understood not everything is written in stone. All situations differ. Thank you Shari, I appreciate you.
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13045
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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When I gave birth to a mexican daughter I found myself in the role of "bridge" between the cultural chasm trying to explain to my family & friends
on both sides of the bridge why people did what they did, acted as they act...provide some insight...some understanding so each culture could get
along better. In our immersion programs, we teach not only the language but also delve into cultural matters which is the real meat and potatoes....or
tortillas and beans of learning spanish. It hasn't been easy but it has been a fascinating journey of self discovery...I am proud to say I'm a better
person for it...so thanks Sirenita for providing the opportunity to experience a new reality.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Osprey,
Nothing in the DSM IV that covers it, though it is a form of maddness.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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I was thinking this morning that being a tourist in Mexico, and it being ok to charge me more because I have more money than the locals, is like being
a beutiful woman. One is treated differently, nearly always catered to and pampered and sometimes despised. A beatutiful woman is seen as a sex object
and then as a person. She must deal with how to integrate the fact that she will always have to deal with the blessing/curse of her beauty and will be
heard bemoaning "I want to be seen for who I am, to be treated like a person, not an object".
Iflyfish
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Rick, a record, two Freudian slips of the digits in one post. What do you suppose you really meant by Beutiful and Beatutiful. I couldn't stand my
mother so this is not just idle chatter.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Osprey,
Ok, can I get up off the couch yet! Matted and pinned!
I nearly blew my coffee out my nose....stop that!
I couldn't stand my mother either, much better relationship since her passing.
Iflyfish
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Skipjack, finding a place where you take good care of yourself, see the game clearly and smile at it indicates an evolution and resolution of this
issue. You are not walking around with one of these going on in your head and
that is where I get if I catch myself in moralizing about these things that is part of what I am taking from this great dialogue.
Iflyfish |
Iflyfish, just as I may have misunderstood your views I think you have also. I am not particularly angry about anything on this subject and I don't
really feel any anger or righteousness about any negotation or transaction I have with the people of baja.
I just see a lot of ambituity on this thread about what is essentially right and wrong. It's good under this situation but wrong under this one. When
things get like that for me I just cut to the center of what it really is all about and the answer becomes clear and simple.
I fully appreciate Mexico's cultural differences and enjoy them as much as anyone (more so , perhaps, as I've been crisscrossing lating america for
decades). I think some of these qualities are a hinderance to it ever becoming the sort of country it aspires to be. And the subject of this thread is
related to some of those issues.
Have you ever tried to get a taxi in Lima, Peru? If you are traveling with locals they will try to tell you to stand behind the corner so that the
driver can't see you. Why? Because you're (I'm) a chump. They (your friends) will then hail one down and the process begins. The give and take until
you get a price you feel is fair. About half of the time that doesn't happen. They wave him off and look for another one. Now, I know for a fact that
Peruvians themselves don't like going through this process. It's timeconsuming and often gets emotional. Personally I prefer being duped than going
through this whole thing but they have no choice. They have no choice because every intes matters. The other option is to take the bus and hold on to
the rail outside with your back to the breeze. 
Anyway I think the country suffers for it.
After reading your subsequent posts I really don't see much of a difference in our points of view. It's just a matter of emphasizing one thing over
another in order to accentuate some point.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
By the way...the constuction workers who worked in the states do NOT charge american prices...probably half of what you would pay there...but do
charge a bit more than the substandard work that most mexicans will be happy with.
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But we have found that the local workers who have NOT worked in the US are more reliable, are honest, stand behind their work, and overall do better
work.
Even with the one tile man who worked in the states who does excellent tile work, his substance abuse problems makes it impossible to work with him.
Just what we have learned by trial and error.
Diane
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I couldn't stand my mother either |
Tell us what she did, or didn't do, to incur your wrath. Perhaps we can help.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Should have written "find a place where ONE can care for ONESELF" My bad writing. I think you have sorted a lot of this out and I admire how you move
through it. You said "When things get like that for me I just cut to the center of what it really is all about and the answer becomes clear and
simple." and that is indeed the place I seek. Sorry for my poor writing. It is hard in this media to adequately express oneself about an issue as
complex as this. I often read posts from you that reflect this "center" place and appreciate that about your posts.
"After reading your subsequent posts I really don't see much of a difference in our points of view. It's just a matter of emphasizing one thing over
another in order to accentuate some point." I agree. I posted the response you refer too at a point in my evolving thinking out loud where I started
to see how I can get myself stuck in a good/bad paradigm "moralizing" and then get rigid with anger. I appreciated your comments on my post and am
pleased that you read them and make such astute comments. I tried to use emotograms to depict my internal states as I changed my thinking and thereby
my feelings. Still not good at that.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
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Thanks Dennis, please practive your hmmmms and ahas and I will continue. It really is not what she did or didn't do, but how I experienced what she
did or didn't do and the conclusions and decisions I made about myself in the context of the relationship. The good news is that one can change these
decisions. Thanks for the ride on the couch.
Iflyfish
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
It really is not what she did or didn't do, but how I experienced what she did or didn't do and the conclusions and decisions I made about myself in
the context of the relationship.
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Aha..... Effect independent of cause. Very victimationalistic. Hmmmmmm.....
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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Shari and Osprey seem to come closer to the cultural explanation of this practice but most are trying to see the issue through "American Eyes" which
makes explaining the issue very difficult. My wife bought a cake this week for a Despedida de Soltera which is a wedding shower for a friend in the
village. The woman who makes cakes comes very highly reccommended and was reported to be very reasonable. When we asked the price, she said she did
not know because she had not bought the ingredients yet and the price kept changing but she said because we were friends of friends she would treat us
right on the price and not take advantage of us. The cake was absolutely magnificent and she gave us a price that was a little high. As we talked
about the price, she explained that the prices for the materials had increased since the last one she had baked a month or so ago and she was willing
to take less profit on this cake. So we gave here a tip to take care of the smaller profit margin and said that it was because she had done an extra
special job on this particual cake.
Here is the point. In the US, it would have been a mass produced or maybe individual produced cake and the expectation is for a fixed price,
whereas in Mexico the price is a little more fluid. Perhaps that is why we are commonly seen as brash and maybe a little uncivilized since we do not
normally go through the social interactions of talking about relatives or family and current events before we come to the bottom line of a
transaction. For a mexican, I suspect that the bottom line is a much more fluid process.
I have had a similar experience with a worker who was helping me with the house and we agreed on a price but the work was much more difficult than
either of us expected. On one level he felt he should stay with the original quoted rate but we both knew that some adjustment should be made due to
the increased difficulty and by communicating we reached a level where we were both pleased and satisfied.
On the other hand I have had workers who never did communicate very openly and I watched them overcharge other foreigners in the area. After a
spell, they found that they had great difficulty getting any work because their reputation preceded them and it became increasingly difficult to find
new people to take advantage of.
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bajalera
Super Nomad
Posts: 1875
Registered: 10-15-2003
Location: Santa Maria CA
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Pippitysnice--what a great word. Thank you, Shari.
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Dennis, you said "Aha..... Effect independent of cause. Very victimationalistic. Hmmmmmm..... "
I said "It really is not what she did or didn't do, but how I experienced what she did or didn't do and the conclusions and decisions I made about
myself in the context of the relationship."
I don't see this as victimization at all. I own my own perceptions, most parents do the very best that they can. What is significant is how I
interpreted those behaviors and that is taking responsibility for my own interpretations and the feelings generated in the context of the interaction.
I made decisions about myself in those transactions and that is also my decision. There actually is great power in that awareness as I know that it
was ME who decided how to interpret, feel and dicide in the context of the relationship. If I decide one thing then, as a child, I can decide
something very different as an adult and that is not victimization, that is empowerment. We all tend to repeat familiar, predictable interaction and
feeling patterns that we developed in our history. It is empowering to know that we can interpret, feel and behave differently.
This issue is relevant to the current discussion in that if I interpret the interaction that Pescador just described as immoral behavior on the part
of the baker, her charging different prices, then I am victimizing myself in the transaction. I am saying I am a victim of her immorality. If I
recognize that I have the power to interpret the transaction in different ways, then I have option to decide if I wish to maintain my interpretation
and the feelings and conclusions that proceed from my interpertation of the transaction. That empowers me to choose how I am going to interpret, feel
about, and behave in the transaction. That is empowerment. I empower myself by taking responsibility for my perception, interpretation and behavior.
That is not victimization, this is empowerment.
I generate my own perceptions, interpretations, feelings and decisions about what happens to me. There is great power in that. I am not saying that
sh.. does not happen, it does, but my interpretations about those things generate my feelings and decisions and thereby my behavior. If I tend to
personalize or moralize then my responses will tend to become more rigid and reactive and that obviously is not what leads to success in Mexico.
Pescador got it right I think, as have Shari, Osprey and ShipJack. To be happy and content in Mexico requires flexablility and adaptability to a very
different way of being in the world. Victim mentality will only create more problems. There is great power in flexibility and adaptability it is not
weakness as some would tend to see it.
Iflyfish
Iflyfish
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