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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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It was a lot of work, by several men... just don't think they had that much time for 'fun' when survival was so important... Specially if there
weren't herds of deer or borregos, as you imply. The walls are uncommon in ancient Indian sites... very common in Spanish mission sites, however.
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18398
Registered: 9-16-2006
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
It was a lot of work, by several men... just don't think they had that much time for 'fun' when survival was so important... |
you're crazy. the natives of baja had time and resources for "fun" and culture. maybe it was different than what you are acustomed to, but it was a
highly developed culture in desert areas of CA and Baja.
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avid
Junior Nomad
Posts: 41
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: SW Oregon
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Mood: adventurous
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Traps don't mean big herds necessarily. Traps in my mind would indicate weapons with limited range. There were Pronghorn in Baja. They can exist in
large numbers in seemingly sparse habitat. They don't refer to them as goats for no reason. 
Having had the privilege of hunting Pronghorn you learn some interesting things about them. First of all they have razor sharp eyesight. Supposedly
like a human wearing 8X binoculars. They are also very curious because of the great eyesight. They will actually move toward things that don't scare
them and that they can't figure out. Once spooked they have a tendency to run pell mell as a herd. I have seen whole herds hit fence corners with some
jumping and clearing the fence and others running into the fence. IIRC it was a damn tall fence and I was shocked to actually see some clearing it.
When you run at 60 mph, just as driving that fast, things happen quickly.
The other way this could have been used was as a training tool. Perhaps they trained game to walk up or down the chute and occasionally there would be
a group hiding behind the walls in ambush. They could have observed animals moving for months or even years and developed strategies for tricking
them.
I highly suggest that anyone that is interested take a look at Google Earth and see what you think.
avid
Ashland, OR
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
It was a lot of work, by several men... just don't think they had that much time for 'fun' when survival was so important... |
you're crazy. the natives of baja had time and resources for "fun" and culture. maybe it was different than what you are acustomed to, but it was a
highly developed culture in desert areas of CA and Baja. |
You were there? How old are you?? No, I'm not crazy but I am entertaining everyone's ideas... crazy or not.
There were two native cutures in Baja it would seem... Those from the1400's A.D. or earlier, who painted the cave murals made famous in the books by
Erle Stanley Gardner and Harry Crosby and those more primitive the Jesuits found who ate bugs, lizards, and pitaya seeds from the 'second harvest'
(1700's).
I found no petroglyphs an any of the rocks up there... and that is why I am more leaning towards the Spanish being resonsible for those walls. Almost
everywhere else there were Indians, water, and some down time, there are petroglyphs.
ALL are just guesses... unless someone who saw them being made can come foreward.
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
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Deer and mountain sheep would laugh at those "walls". Deer can leap 6 feet, more if they are running. Mountain sheep have "suction cups" on their
hooves, hence their name.
Short walls like that are for stupid cows.
The walls were not built by the Natives, they are either from the Mission times or vaqueros; more likely the latter.
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
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Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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You think the circles were already there before the walls were built? Can't they date that varnish?
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
Posts: 1913
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Location: Behind the Orange Curtain, CA
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The circles were there before the walls and could be several 1,000 years old.
Dating varnish is very inexact, except for use as a relative dating tool (Not as in Appalachia-Singles.com, but as in this is older than that) 
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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Sharksbaja
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CASE CLOSED!
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
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Taco, love that sig!!
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thanks Taco de Baja... if it's good enough for Sharksbaja, then it's good enough for me! 
(but will Mtgoat666 be satisfied?)
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avid
Junior Nomad
Posts: 41
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: SW Oregon
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Mood: adventurous
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Short walls like that are for stupid cows.
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Given the steepness and rockiness of the sides of the mesa I don't think cows would have ever gotten up there in numbers to need a drift fence anyhow.
If they were going up the chute, which David said is so steep he chose not to climb it, throw a block in the chute. Even if they would have gotten up
there who cares if they went down the other side. It was right around the end of the mesa. In my experience, drift fences are built to prevent cows
from crossing into other drainages. Like in a saddle at the top of a divide between two watersheds. If someone has cows that climb like that they
would mark them and make a point of keeping her calves. Cows are not know for their climbing tendencies. Most cows would be camping out down near the
reservoir and spring. This is the reason they are hard on rangeland. FWIW
avid
Ashland, OR
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
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No no no...... you got it all wrong. The chute is where the animals were forced over and down into the arms of spear and rock wielding indiginous
people.
Now, were those cattle, pronghorn or chupas?
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Mood: Happy!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Deer and mountain sheep would laugh at those "walls". Deer can leap 6 feet, more if they are running. Mountain sheep have "suction cups" on their
hooves, hence their name.
Short walls like that are for stupid cows.
The walls were not built by the Natives, they are either from the Mission times or vaqueros; more likely the latter. |
Agreed on the wild game theory--not plausible...
...but if the walls were built by vaqueros why aren't they finished? And why on a slope--not a very comfortable spot for the cattle/horses to hang
out, and no forage...
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Taco de Baja
Super Nomad
Posts: 1913
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Location: Behind the Orange Curtain, CA
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Mood: Dreamin' of Baja
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Ok, it's not the Natives, it's not the missionaries, it's not the vaqueros, it's not nomads, it's not surfers.....How about putting this idea on the
table:
Feng shui ? Hmmmm? 
Truth generally lies in the coordination of antagonistic opinions
-Herbert Spencer
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Mood: Happy!
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Feng Shui...hmmmm, some wayward chinese shaman steering the energy around...sure, why not!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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What do you two guys smoke? Or, after Mision San Pedro Martir... was it the mushrooms?
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Mood: Happy!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
What do you two guys smoke? Or, after Mision San Pedro Martir... was it the mushrooms? |
Now how do YOU know about the mushrooms in the SPM?! The ones on Matomi are even better...
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
What do you two guys smoke? Or, after Mision San Pedro Martir... was it the mushrooms? |
Now how do YOU know about the mushrooms in the SPM?! The ones on Matomi are even better... |
Appearance is EVERYTHING!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64857
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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It has been almost two years since the site was 'discovered' (again)... I know at least one other Nomad has visted and photographed the site... It is
one of Baja's great mystery spots, indeed! 
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3824
Registered: 2-9-2004
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From 1/17/09: "Dr. Ritter and I have just had some email exchanges about the next site in Baja he is going to study, as I have been there, and am
assisting him on it as much as I can/ he needs. (no, I won't tell you where, lol)" So, did you and he do this? Where was it?
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