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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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Mood: Mellow
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mike I didn't know they had a course in training for a ditching, what a good idea. I have a lot of 182 time in Baja and thought about it often. I
also have a friend who survived a fixed-gear ditching at the north end of La Paz bay, abeam that "Grand Canyon" mountain area that goes right to the
shore. There are so many unanswered questions here, what a tragedy. The Daily Pilot report says the airplane was in THREE FEET of water. Seems to
me that would have left a lot of airspace around their feet. Quien sabe??
carpe diem!
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capt. mike
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8085
Registered: 11-26-2002
Location: Bat Cave
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Mood: Sling time!
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yeah, getting unbelted would have been key. i don't know if he had shoulder harnesses but based on plane vintage i think not as they were not yet
required - i added them under STC for my 1961 model year which prevents forward contact with the yoke/front/panel in a sudden deceleration.
often with only lap belts the occupant survives the hard stop only to be knocked out or have severe head and chest trauma due to lack of shoulder
restraints.
appears Carlos did get unbelted 1st and may even have called for "brace" before impact. with low light conditions judging ht above water before the
strike point would have been very hard to do too.
the ditching training is california based assuming they are still doing it - many av related businesses have been forced to close since this
economical mess started 2006/2007.
i found them on a link at one iof the survival products websites i think back when i got my 1st raft.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Aviation training
Check with your nearest Civil Air Patrol unit and see if they are offering any training. I know in Nevada we do "Mountain Fury" several times a
year.....great stuff if you fly near or over any mountain areas
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Gentlemen and Scholars and you to Capt. Mike.
All of the comments are well taken and very natrual after an accident involving someone you may know,.
The pilots who have Posted have some very good "ideas" of the cause of this Accident. And there are several Possibilities.
Years ago i was involved in the Investigation of Several Beechcraft Accidents. Investigators all over the Country were trying to figure out Accidents
involving mostly approach Accidents in the older. Units.
Finally it was discoverd! When Switching the Fuel Slector Value prior to landing it was discovered that on some units the small Detent Ball was
failing to Switch and let the Fuel flow from the Tank.
With this Accident the cause of course goes to Fuel as the piloted reported he was "Low, or Out of fuel"
The several reasons and possibilty or the cause of the loss of Fuel will probably be dertimined if there is a "Mechanical Malfunction: discovered,
if no Mechanical is determined, then the true cause may never be known.
Then if we can go further, there is the Mental Cause of Accidents such as the famous Investigation of the so-called "Doctor Killer' Beechcraft.
So set back relax and try not to place Blame until all the Facts are in and Checked.
Skeet
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Natalie Ann
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2819
Registered: 8-22-2003
Location: Berkeley
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Hi Skeet... I'm thinking that perhaps your puzzle should be posted as a thread of its own. To discuss that in this thread implies disrespect for the
deceased... and I am certain that you do not mean any disrespect.
You 'n Virginia have a peaceful and pleasant holiday, amigo.
nena
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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OK Nat: I really thought it might take some pressure off all the talk about What happened to Carlos. Sorry I had good intention. Will start a new
Thread.
Skeet
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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The Doctor-Killer ?
NO.
Catch up with the Times, Skeeter.
It was NOT a "Fork-Tailed Devil".
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
NO.
Catch up with the Times, Skeeter.
It was NOT a "Fork-Tailed Devil". |
If you guys are talking about the "V-tail" Bonanzas-----I flew them for years and I always thought them incredibly tough, but kinda squirrly, and I
was not that fond of them. We had many of them for rentals at JIM'S AIR in San Diego, and people DID love them.
Barry
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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There was so many of them being bought and flown and crashed that it got the Name of being a "Doctor Killer".
Many Investigations were made and it was finally concluded that it was "A Doctors training that cause many of the accidents.; doctors were being
trained that Once they made a decesion to stick to that decesion. It made them think that they could do no Wrong.
If you are not able to make a change while flying in a Aircraft you are in Big Trouble.
I have about 500 hours in a "Forked-Tail Devil"' Good Airplane and the Fastest when you slighly drop the Nose!!!
Skeet
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Yep, put a Bonanza on "the step" and away you went. Very efficient airplane, and pretty fast-------but they were always wagging their tail until you
got really used to them. I had under 100 hours in them, so probably never fully got "used to them". Preferred the Cessna 182 or 205----both
workhorses.
Barry
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LancairDriver
Super Nomad
Posts: 1588
Registered: 2-22-2008
Location: On the Road
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Better check the AD history of the "V" tail Bonanza if you think they were a tough airplane. The older ones were grounded for a structural weakness in
the tail. Too many were pulling the tails off of them. FAA had a speed limit not to exceed put on them until a reinforcement mod. was installed.
The owner of the Nut Tree Restaurant in Northern Cal. was killed going into Bay of LA and going downhill too fast in rough air and pulled the tail
off and scattered the airplane for several miles in the late seventies.
Skeet must remember that one.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Yes: It was the Powers Family.
And on the other Hand I had one that landed at Bishop one day for me to check for damages. he had come over the pass West of Reno and hit tought
Winds. The upper part of both Wing Sections were Wrinkled. I took pictures and the guy took off to go to his Destination.
Most of the Ruddervator seperations were on the early ones, cause was corrected and later ones did not have near the trouble.
The Doctors were the only ones who could afford the Expensive Beechs so that is why the more Accidents in that particulaar Aircraft.
Where people got into trouble was when they lowered the Nose and did not compensate for the increase in speed so fast.
I was always a Tail-Dragger Pilot and to this day I prefer a Tail Dragger. espwecially a Pa -18 or what is known as the Super Cub. the 180 for long
trips and my old Trusty 170 B.
Oh! those were the days!!
LancirDriver. I had just talked to the Pilot and had told him to watch when he amde a descent into the Bay of La. We talked about Windshear and
downdrafts. I was investigating a Twin Cessna which had overrun the runway. I had to pull it back on the runway with a Cable and Tractor
Later ones were good Airplanes..
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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One more quick One!
This young Pilot with only 75 Hours Flying time Departed Troutdale Ore. Airport with his Girlfriend to take her on a sighseeing tour of Mt. Hood.
On arriving at Mt. Hood there was a layer of clouds near the top which the pilot went into. Shortly thereafter he said that he looked backward and
observed the "Ruddervator" come off the Aircarft, The Aircraft then inverted and started Spinning downward where right before it hit the Engine came
off the Aircraft, then the Aircarft landed upside down in a Tree!!!! The only Injury was when he unbuckled the seatbelt of his Passenger and she hit
her head on the Dash. The Accident had occurred near a logging road so the pilot walked out for Help.
I took this statement from the pilot about two days after the accident. Hard to Beleive!!
This was one of the older Beechcrafts.
For Non-beleivers they can check NTSB reports.
Skeet
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Skeet Shots
Memories aside, since the plane involved was not a V-Tail Bonanza, the "Doctor-Killer" speculation was immaterial.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Mr. Bill You do not understand what is being talked about.
Most of the Aircraft in the Doctors Deal were Beechcraft. Not all but Most.
It became talk in the Aviation community and just started id with the Beechcraft and the Doctors. Nothing More
There is a Ton of Information that I am sure you can find if you are truly interested in Facts.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Skeetering Dementia
OK, Skeet. PROVE that you KNOW what you're talking about. Reach into the recesses and reference documented links which refer to OTHER specific
Aircraft as the "Doctor-Killer". You indicate that you have such vast references. I've only heard the term (or the alternate "V-tailed Doctor
Killer") used in reference to the V-tailed 35.
Put UP !
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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O>K.
You are correct in your reference to "V-Tailed Doctor Killers and most of the Attention was directed toweard the Beech as most of the accidents were
in "V-Tails
"'
However folowing the Theme that it was not the Aircraft but the Mindset of the Doctors causing the accidents other planes were looked at more closely.
My persoanl Investigations of other Doctor-Killer" Accidents:
Cessna 210 on Approach to Lake Tahoe Airport
Piper Commanche on Approach to Lodi Airp[ort
Cessna 205 west of Van Nuys Airport.
And there are others. And many of the Current reports were investigated by the NtSB not the FAA which did all of the Investigations{If they got around
too it}
Many of the complete Investigations were done by the Insurance Investigators and their results never known to the Authorties..
It was a dfifferent time , a different world,
I am sure that "What you heard" was from some of those Pilots that resented V-Tail Beechcraft, somewhat like us Tail- Dragger Pilots.
Relax and enjoy Life Mr. Bill.
Skeet
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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OH, I See
The "Authoritative References" that Skeet cites are inside HIS head.
Well, that settles it.
After all, by his own description, he has to be the most experienced authority since, well, Creation, I guess. Whatever it is, he's been there, done
that. Whatever anybody else has done, he can top it. A legend in his own aged mind. Investigator Extraordinaire . The inspiration for James West,
if not Artemus Gordon. The James Bond of Bakersfield.
Actually, he MAY have been the Secret Agent hired by U.S. Grant.
Reminds me of a group of guys sitting around topping each other in Baja which a friend once described as "First Liar doesn't stand a chance".
Tell us what REALLY happened in the Black Dahlia case. We KNOW you were there, Skeet. Incognito, of course.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
NO.
Catch up with the Times, Skeeter.
It was NOT a "Fork-Tailed Devil". |
Mr. Bill------I don't believe that Skeet ever claimed that it WAS a "V-tail" in that accident------he was just giving us the benefit of past
experience with them, it seemed to me, and speculating. (like several of us are).
You are being pretty grouchy today, and insulting, for reasons beyond my comprehension.
What's the point??
Barry
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Very True Barry.
There may always be a Doubt in many peoples Mind about the very Exact cause of the Accident,
Yes it does seem to me that Mr. Bowell Movement is on the "Rag" Today. Maybe that he didn"t get his Wheaties this Moring.
Oh! well we must put up with those of "lessor Genes".
Skeet
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