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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17553
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bullmello
I'm not sure if you have ever flown on a commercial airplane before, but they have safety equipment instructions for the passengers before the plane
leaves the ground. That is a good idea if you care about your passengers or even about liability.
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90% of passengers, including me, ignore the airline safety msgs while we wait for takeoff.
but when i sit in exit row i do study how to pop the door!
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
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I was down in the area today, and one of the things I talked about with a local fisherman friend who has lived there all his life was this incident.
He lives a little north of the exact area but he told me that he experienced VERY strong winds thart evening for about 30-45 minutes. He has
livednthere his entire life so that description is probably more than accurate.
He also told me that things happened very quickly, and anyone who was not awake and in their stateroom may well have gone down with the boat, all of
which happened in minutes.
He wasn't there, but this is what the locals are saying in the area.
JZ, with all due respect - I know you have a lot of experience on the water, but you have enough to know that a 105' boat, facing the wrong way, with
open hatches and hit with even 20' short swells such as you see in the Cortez, could flood pretty quickly, and the short wave interval could very
quickly put about any boat in trouble, especially at night and especially if not under way.
I will say that after being far offshore in my own boat, i would not take lightly putting my life in the hands of any skipper, and this boat, with
this owner and this skipper and crew would not be anywhere near the top of my list.
You get on a boat, any distance from the dock, and your life is in potential jeopardy.
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capt. mike
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Posts: 8085
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i have over 3300 hours as pilot in command in light aircraft but the most frightening experiences of my life respective to travel have been on boats
in rough seas.
the ocean is a monster.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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Pescador
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Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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I have read all of the reports here as well as all of the other major websites and the thing that really sticks out in my mind are:
The boat was reported as being underway which meant it was not on anchor and the waves hit the boat from the side. Anyone who has spent any time on a
boat knows for sure you never get sideways to a wave of any size. You keep the boat going forward and at the most a small quartering may be in order,
The crew knew that things were getting dicey and all were reported as having on life jackets, but the passengers were never alerted that things were
in trouble so that they could be on deck standing by. And the fact that only one passenger was given a "questionable" life jacket as it was going
down.
The third issue was that none of the hatches, especially the fish hold were sealed up. Anytime that a boat is expecting rough situations, the first
thing that competent boaters do is make sure everything is tied down, sealed off, and loose things stowed.
Probably because I wrote a weekly report for Western Outdoor News and Gene Kira, I had a lot of communications about what went on with a lot of the
baja fishing scene. There was a guy on one of the other websites who used to promote this boat as a way to earn a free fishing trip. I often
challenged him about his glowing reports of the operation as I knew a lot of people who had been swindled by Gustav Velez and overcharged, or received
only about half of the fish that had gone into the hold, or small petty theft of reels and equipment, or being asked for a fuel surcharge when
fishermen arrived in San Felipe.
I am sure we have all experienced businesses that are exceptional but it normally starts from the top down. I am just sorry that I was not more
vocal about the shortcomings and negative reports of this business.
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monoloco
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Location: Pescadero BCS
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Well said Pescador, so many mistakes of basic seamanship were made that it adds up to gross incompetence. There is only one place for the captain of
that vessel, a jail cell.
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nbacc
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Posts: 770
Registered: 12-27-2008
Location: Northern California
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too bad, as it fuels the uneasy feelings about Mexico even more to the Americans who have in the past come and spent their money on vacations
somewhere in Mexico.
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mtgoat666
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Posts: 17553
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| Quote: | Originally posted by nbacc
too bad, as it fuels the uneasy feelings about Mexico even more to the Americans who have in the past come and spent their money on vacations
somewhere in Mexico. |
you should evaluate all vessels, US or foreign, before embarking.
the US has pretty good regulation of commercial vessels, but not perfect (unfortunately will be less regulation if republicans get their opportunity
to gut government).
foreign vessels, particularly in poor countries w/o inspections/laws, are often below US standards, you should always ask about safety and inspect
vessel before embarking.
fyi, the pangas are probably more dangerous than boats like the erik. pangas are single engine, small, and open - and go pretty far off shore. mex
pangas usually don't have navigation equipment or lights, and have little safety equip beyond life vests - which most gringos don't wear but use as
seat cushions.
the mex pangas have hand-held radios that are not waterproof (may be water resistant). in case of capsize, panga radios are unlikely to be usable.
the world is full of risks. regardless,...
don't worry, be happy
just do it!
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DENNIS
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Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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And...Mexico doing what they do, will eventually blame the excessive negative press on the temporary demise of the Gulf sport fishing industry
although business will return to normal, in time. The favored clients of these businesses have short memories.
.
[Edited on 7-10-2011 by DENNIS]
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Jack Swords
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Posts: 1094
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: Nipomo, CA/La Paz, BCS
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Having sailed all over the Sea of Cortez on both sides and the entire length, we are aware of the sudden change in Wx that happens frequently. The
change is much more dramatic than in the Pacific off CA. That said, we have taken many fishing trips in local pangas in the Sea and offshore in the
Pacific and never saw life jackets, nor a VHF radio. We carry our own jackets (inflatable) and hand-held radio. Dive boats off La Paz do however.
Sitting in the c-ckpit of our boat we frequently see a coast guard big panga heading in to the station and stopping off the marina where the crew puts
their life jackets on before continuing on to the station.
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Roberto
Banned
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Registered: 9-5-2003
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Yes, Pescador, you are right on about the reputation of this boat and its owner.
Even my friend yesterday was much less than complimentary about it. It has had trouble of different kinds many times.
It has been reported that the captain had been warned not to leave port that day because of upcoming weather changes. I'm not sure about this one,
given the swiftness of weather changes in the area, but if it is indeed true, I wonder about the fact that so much time passed before the accident was
reported. Wouldn't an extra measure of caution, e.g., frequent communications be warranted in a situation like this? I know I would have considered it
so. And, as Pescador points out, the report that the crew was all on deck, with lifejackets, is particularly troubling. Can't think of anything more
unprofessional/criminal, if true. And this kind of report regarding on a U.S. flagged vessel would be viewed extremely dimly by the USCG , I can tell
you that. We'll se if the U.S. government raises any sort of request for an investigation on this matter.
What I fear will happen, based on past history, is that regardless of what actually happened and how many dead there are at the end of the day, this
story will just fade into the folklore of another Mexican story.
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wessongroup
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Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by JZ
115' boat is a monster. Still don't see how it's possible. |
I can tell you that riding a 120 ft boat in 50 foot swells and 60+ knot winds will make you understand a 115 ft boat is an ant.
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looking at the pics of stacked UPRIGHT pangas, it may be that the pangas filled from a rogue wave, and with open hatches doors allowing filling of
ship, the boat was never able to right itself.
those pangas should have been stored on deck upside down. |
Ya mean like this......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvtwo2ugwU8
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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CORDONAZO
If you are interested in what may have happened in this instance, I would suggest that you get a copy of BAJA SEA GUIDE and look through and read
about the "Whip Storms" that happen very suddenly. It seems as if this may have happened.
a Whip storm hiet loreato one morning about 11 AM. Blew Windows offr of their Hinges and also took down the Transformer Boses in front of the Hotel
S=Oasis.
Tio Don and I were in the Hurricane Lisa in 73 and we both agreeded that this Sudden Whip Storm had Winds much Higher and stronger.
A large Vessel like this one was caught in front of Loreto just off Shore and had to keep turning into the Changing Winds.
It was somewhat like a Toronado.
The records show that the last such storm to Hit San Felipe area was in 1967, Any body know of a more recent "Whip Storm" in that Area.???
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doradodan
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Posts: 162
Registered: 11-23-2006
Location: San Felipe
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Mood: boracho
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Toney Reyes held up
Was just down at the marina, The Tony Reyes has been held up by the officials double checking the certificates, and safety equipment, all the clients
are upset because they should be underway.
\"The time spent off the water, I\'m thinking of ways to get back in\"
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Woooosh
Banned
Posts: 5240
Registered: 1-28-2007
Location: Rosarito Beach
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Mood: Luminescent Waves at Rosarito Beach
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
And...Mexico doing what they do, will eventually blame the excessive negative press on the temporary demise of the Gulf sport fishing industry
although business will return to normal, in time. The favored clients of these businesses have short memories.
[Edited on 7-10-2011 by DENNIS] |
Experienced charter anglers know if a boat is seaworthy or not. At least they get a gut feeling one way or the other for the boat, the crew or both.
I would guess the Erik catered to large groups and even if a few anglers had second thoughts on safety, peer pressure got them on board with their
friends. This boat didn't look "right" to me, but it was the two 40' rogue waves that took it down, not a specific problem with the boat (with the
exception of possible top-heaviness). jmho
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Cypress
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The boat went down. Happens every now and then. Rogue wave or waves did it to it. Blame the boat, the crew, the captain, the weather. Happens every
now and then. Rogue wave or waves ............
+
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Woooosh
Banned
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Registered: 1-28-2007
Location: Rosarito Beach
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Mood: Luminescent Waves at Rosarito Beach
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
The boat went down. Happens every now and then. Rogue wave or waves did it to it. Blame the boat, the crew, the captain, the weather. Happens every
now and then. Rogue wave or waves ............
+ |
Same with airliners. Caca Pasa.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Cypress
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Yep!
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David K
Honored Nomad
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Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Skeet, what page(s) is/are 'whip storms' on?
I have the Baja Sea Guide (c1971) and could share the page here for others to see. The book is almost 40 years out-of-print (last printing 1973) and
may be quite difficult to find or reasonably priced.
'Cordonazo' is another name for Isla Partida, but nothing on that page I could see (331).
[Edited on 7-10-2011 by David K]
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JZ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9481
Registered: 10-3-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by JZ
115' boat is a monster. Still don't see how it's possible. |
I can tell you that riding a 120 ft boat in 50 foot swells and 60+ knot winds will make you understand a 115 ft boat is an ant.
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Yeah I realize that. But you think the waves were close to 50'? I just don't see a fast moving thunderstorm creating waves anywhere near that size.
I'd guess much closer to 8-10' with some bigger sets. Pretty damn rough, but that boat should handle it.
Was it blowing hard for hours? And just got worst? Because it's not gonna blow 60 mph for a short period of time and make a 50' wave. And if it was
blowing for hours it'd be rough as hell and I can't see anyone in their rooms trying to sleep. The one guy that was interviewed said he was awaken by
his friend.
It couldn't have been that rough if 5 guys could find and hold on to a cooler.
And how could another dozen guys get in a 20' panga (although it doesn't say how soon they got in it after the boat sank).
Something just doesn't add up to me.
[Edited on 7-11-2011 by JZ]
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Bajahowodd
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I'm just guessing here, but I think Skeet is trying to say that what happened last week South of San Felipe may not be anyone's fault.
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