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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
Woops, sorry Ken...though I think I did start with the bathwater analogy. |
No problema Mexitron!! So that "bathwater" thing was your fault???? Shame!!! 
carpe diem!
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Iflyfish
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This has evolved into a very interesting discussion indeed. I appreciate the civility of the dialogue, one, like race, that is difficult to have.
Feelings run deep on the subject so it is rare to experience civil dialogue about it, I love the injection of humor into the discourse.
As a 35 plus years practicing Psychotherapy, and one who has made a formal study of Philosophy, Theology and Comparative Religions I have drawn some
conclusions I would like to share.
1. It is nearly impossible to separate ones Psychology from ones Religion. I suspect that we choose a religion, to the extent that we choose and are
not conditioned, on the basis of our Psychology. If our parents were religious and we were exposed to it then it is an issue to be addressed in our
Psychology. Some of us inherit very heavy bags of rocks, some not so much.
2. Religion can be have both positive and negative influence upon people and nations. Religion can provide a common moral code, which can facilitate
the rule of law. Since the metaphors of religion are so general it can also support unspeakable human behavior and atrocities. Religion can be the
last bastion of a scoundrel or provide hope and a sense of being loved for a severely abused person, much as the ownership of a cat or dog can provide
a sense of unconditional love. I don't mean to trivialize religion by the comparison but use it to point to a common experience of unconditional love,
one of the great balms that religion can provide.
3. Religion can and has had a powerful influence on culture and the common beliefs and values of a society. It can support passivity as Roman
Catholicism has in Latin America, the mass being in Latin and unintelligible to the common man in the pew who is overwhelmed with the size and glory
of the edifices. For many in Mexico the Roman Catholic Church provided native people with a place to project their old religions and maintain their
historical practices, there are snakes (Quetzalcoatl) for example to be found in the architecture of Cathedrals in Mexico, I have seen them along with
other Pr-Colombian natavist iconography.
4. Religion is universal, found in all cultures so must fulfill a deep need for human beings. I suspect as others have already posted that this
addresses a need for humans to allay anxiety about that which is outside the realm of understanding and to explain via projection that which is
confounding in human experience i.e. how do I integrate the feeling that I am both bad and good as evidenced by how others, particularly early parent
figures, respond to me. Being ethnocentric, the center of the universe, a child has a sense of omnipotence therefore sees him/herself as the ultimate
cause of everything so must integrate that others become angry, sad and happy in response to them. How to then integrate the sense of badness that
comes with parental disapproval? This is a universal developmental issue and common to humans of all cultures. A healthy resolution of this
developmental issue is the conclusion that " I am good and bad and that is good" (Get along with others who are also good and bad). Less positive
resolutions of this developmental issue generate destructive conclusions such as "I am good and others are bad" (Do away with others) or "I am bad
and others are good" (Depression and Masochism), "I am bad and others are bad" (Nihilism, Sadism and Sociopathy, Do away with them and me).
5. Addressing the universality of Religion the Mythologist Joseph Campbell concluded that Religion is Universal, found in all cultures, involves a
"spiritual journey" from dark, from underground/underwater to the light. This "spiritual journey includes a "dark night of the soul" a struggle to
deal with and resolve the issue that Norman O Brown so well said in Life Against Deal that the human condition is that we are a god that chits.
Campbell concluded after studying the mythologies (Religions) of the world that if one practices any of them one can become enlightened. Campbell
himself sounded most like a Buddhist in his later years. Listen to Bill Moyers interview of Campbell at Lucas's Skywalker Ranch to get a feeling and
understanding of his own individual journey.
6. Atheism is a a Theist position. To declare that "There is no god" is to take a position relative to god so is by definition Theist. The opposite of
Theism is a yawn and indifference. To be Theist, Agnostic or Atheist is to take a stance related to Theism and indicates that one is engaged in the
"journey" that Campbell so eloquently describes in his voluminous works on the subject.
7. The more insecure a person is the more rigid their Religious beliefs. It takes great faith to be open to ones experience and little faith to follow
and spew dogma in a rote fashion. The Bible and Koran thumpers have the same Psychology that is based upon fear and insecurity, fundamentalists are
basically fearful and need control of themselves and others to feel the elusive feeling of safety. Fundamentalism however never works in the long run
as it runs counter to the equally powerful drive in humans for differentiation, exploration, learning and mastery thru trial and error.
8. My hope when I die is that I will be open to what comes next, even if it nothing and I have no conscious experience of it. If I do have a conscious
experience of it then I want to be open to what ever it is, be it a dancing, colorful vibration of light, reincarnation, or meeting Donald Duck in
flowing robes on a throne. I want to be open to any and all of these possibilities! It's the best I can do given what I know and don't know. I also
hope that I can approach what ever to happen as I hope to live and that is with a sense of joy, wonder and awe!
Iflyfishandwaxphilosophicattimeswithmynomadamigos
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Ken Bondy
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Wonderful discussion Iflyfish, very thoughtful and eloquently stated. Dawkins thinks that religion is hardwired into us (Dawkins, Richard, "The God
Delusion", Chapter 5). That would explain its universality. It is, Dawkins hypothesized, an unintended by-product of evolution. Natural selection
favored children who did what their parents told them to do (“…stay away from that cliff…don’t put your hand in that fire…don’t jump in that
water…etc.”) The kids who paid attention to their parents tended to survive and procreate more often than those who didn’t. But along with the wise
admonitions, early kids almost always got some bad advice (“…we must worship (zeus, apollo, sun woman, moon man, god, allah, etc.) so the crops will
be good and the sun will continue to rise…”). The children favored by natural selection thus got the religious garbage along with the stuff that was
actually valuable.
[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Actually the holocaust had a lot to do with religion. From the horse's mouth:
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
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Are you saying that the notion of arian supremacy was promoted by the church? I thought that the church wasn't even aware of the death camps.
My thinking is that arian supremacy was well received by the german people. But the camps were largely a "secret", although dad said everyone knew
about them during the war. The church in a dictator state like that is subjugated to the state and merely rubber stamps everything in order to
survive.
I don't think Mein Kampf was written from any religious conviction.
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Barry A.
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Iflyfish--------Excellent piece!!!
I was somewhat surprised and a little dismayed in the latter part of Paragraph 4 that one stage or result of child development was not "I am good, and
others are good too". Was that just omitted by mistake, or was it not considered?
Barry
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Actually the holocaust had a lot to do with religion. From the horse's mouth:
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
|
Are you saying that the notion of arian supremacy was promoted by the church? I thought that the church wasn't even aware of the death camps.
My thinking is that arian supremacy was well received by the german people. But the camps were largely a "secret", although dad said everyone knew
about them during the war. The church in a dictator state like that is subjugated to the state and merely rubber stamps everything in order to
survive.
I don't think Mein Kampf was written from any religious conviction. |
You're reading more into this than is there Igor. I am merely quoting the author. Although I could give you many more quotes, in speeches and
writings other than Mein Kampf, where he proclaimed his Christianity, his belief in god, and the fact that he was acting in accordance with god's
wishes. Much like George Bush saying that god told him to invade Iraq.
carpe diem!
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oxxo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I'll have to think about the statement that religion and science should be discussed in a similar manner. In a book, I agree. But the fact that one is
holy and worshipped and the other is a set of observations and conclusions makes me feel that in a forum you are offending people in the first case
and merely disagreeing with them in the other case. |
What if a person's religion IS science? Your "a priori" conclusions are most evident.
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oxxo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Are you saying that the notion of arian supremacy was promoted by the church? I thought that the church wasn't even aware of the death camps.
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Really? You should read some history (from all perspectives) about Pius XII's relationship with the Nutzis.
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Mexitron
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
This has evolved into a very interesting discussion indeed. I appreciate the civility of the dialogue, one, like race, that is difficult to have.
Feelings run deep on the subject so it is rare to experience civil dialogue about it, I love the injection of humor into the discourse.
As a 35 plus years practicing Psychotherapy, and one who has made a formal study of Philosophy, Theology and Comparative Religions I have drawn some
conclusions I would like to share.
1. It is nearly impossible to separate ones Psychology from ones Religion. I suspect that we choose a religion, to the extent that we choose and are
not conditioned, on the basis of our Psychology. If our parents were religious and we were exposed to it then it is an issue to be addressed in our
Psychology. Some of us inherit very heavy bags of rocks, some not so much.
2. Religion can be have both positive and negative influence upon people and nations. Religion can provide a common moral code, which can facilitate
the rule of law. Since the metaphors of religion are so general it can also support unspeakable human behavior and atrocities. Religion can be the
last bastion of a scoundrel or provide hope and a sense of being loved for a severely abused person, much as the ownership of a cat or dog can provide
a sense of unconditional love. I don't mean to trivialize religion by the comparison but use it to point to a common experience of unconditional love,
one of the great balms that religion can provide.
3. Religion can and has had a powerful influence on culture and the common beliefs and values of a society. It can support passivity as Roman
Catholicism has in Latin America, the mass being in Latin and unintelligible to the common man in the pew who is overwhelmed with the size and glory
of the edifices. For many in Mexico the Roman Catholic Church provided native people with a place to project their old religions and maintain their
historical practices, there are snakes (Quetzalcoatl) for example to be found in the architecture of Cathedrals in Mexico, I have seen them along with
other Pr-Colombian natavist iconography.
4. Religion is universal, found in all cultures so must fulfill a deep need for human beings. I suspect as others have already posted that this
addresses a need for humans to allay anxiety about that which is outside the realm of understanding and to explain via projection that which is
confounding in human experience i.e. how do I integrate the feeling that I am both bad and good as evidenced by how others, particularly early parent
figures, respond to me. Being ethnocentric, the center of the universe, a child has a sense of omnipotence therefore sees him/herself as the ultimate
cause of everything so must integrate that others become angry, sad and happy in response to them. How to then integrate the sense of badness that
comes with parental disapproval? This is a universal developmental issue and common to humans of all cultures. A healthy resolution of this
developmental issue is the conclusion that " I am good and bad and that is good" (Get along with others who are also good and bad). Less positive
resolutions of this developmental issue generate destructive conclusions such as "I am good and others are bad" (Do away with others) or "I am bad
and others are good" (Depression and Masochism), "I am bad and others are bad" (Nihilism, Sadism and Sociopathy, Do away with them and me).
5. Addressing the universality of Religion the Mythologist Joseph Campbell concluded that Religion is Universal, found in all cultures, involves a
"spiritual journey" from dark, from underground/underwater to the light. This "spiritual journey includes a "dark night of the soul" a struggle to
deal with and resolve the issue that Norman O Brown so well said in Life Against Deal that the human condition is that we are a god that chits.
Campbell concluded after studying the mythologies (Religions) of the world that if one practices any of them one can become enlightened. Campbell
himself sounded most like a Buddhist in his later years. Listen to Bill Moyers interview of Campbell at Lucas's Skywalker Ranch to get a feeling and
understanding of his own individual journey.
6. Atheism is a a Theist position. To declare that "There is no god" is to take a position relative to god so is by definition Theist. The opposite of
Theism is a yawn and indifference. To be Theist, Agnostic or Atheist is to take a stance related to Theism and indicates that one is engaged in the
"journey" that Campbell so eloquently describes in his voluminous works on the subject.
7. The more insecure a person is the more rigid their Religious beliefs. It takes great faith to be open to ones experience and little faith to follow
and spew dogma in a rote fashion. The Bible and Koran thumpers have the same Psychology that is based upon fear and insecurity, fundamentalists are
basically fearful and need control of themselves and others to feel the elusive feeling of safety. Fundamentalism however never works in the long run
as it runs counter to the equally powerful drive in humans for differentiation, exploration, learning and mastery thru trial and error.
8. My hope when I die is that I will be open to what comes next, even if it nothing and I have no conscious experience of it. If I do have a conscious
experience of it then I want to be open to what ever it is, be it a dancing, colorful vibration of light, reincarnation, or meeting Donald Duck in
flowing robes on a throne. I want to be open to any and all of these possibilities! It's the best I can do given what I know and don't know. I also
hope that I can approach what ever to happen as I hope to live and that is with a sense of joy, wonder and awe!
Iflyfishandwaxphilosophicattimeswithmynomadamigos |
Joe Campbell in the Moyer's interview kinda says a lot of it, eh?
I'll say this for Buddhism---the number one tenet is Be A Light Unto Yourself----thus negating the religious stuff.........
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bajadogs
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| Quote: |
"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?
Barry |
We agree!!! It's great to have you on our side. Religious symbols have no place on public land. Prayer and religion have no place in public education.
I'm glad you're with us Barry. Separation of church and state protects both church and state right? A little sarcasm here but man, you nailed it.
Great quote!
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Iflyfish
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Iflyfish--------Excellent piece!!!
I was somewhat surprised and a little dismayed in the latter part of Paragraph 4 that one stage or result of child development was not "I am good, and
others are good too". Was that just omitted by mistake, or was it not considered?
Barry |
Yup, I'm ok and your ok! Bad writing, thanks for the clarification.
Iflyfish
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oxxo
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I'll have to think about the statement that religion and science should be discussed in a similar manner. In a book, I agree. But the fact that one is
holy and worshipped and the other is a set of observations and conclusions makes me feel that in a forum you are offending people in the first case
and merely disagreeing with them in the other case. |
What if a person's religion IS science? Your "a priori" conclusions are most evident. |
Personally that wouldn't make sense to me.
Good science is reached through detachment. Experiments are established and things are disclaimed or proven. Either way, they should not matter to the
investigator because all results are equally valid. We just move on. When a scientist loses that detachment he stops being objective. Yes, it's great
to discover the cure for cancer but usually the investigastor's state of being has little to do with the process.
Religion is quite different. Attachment is what it's all about. Faith is an important part of the experience. Truth is less important than devotion.
I'm not religious but have watched enough of them to sort of understand.
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wessongroup
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"What if a person's religion IS science?" or what if a person's science IS religion ?..
As that seems to be what is happening in Quntum Physics with some folks ...
Kinda like the step before ... discussion of either, first comes our reality and consciousness
The Quantum Activist an interesting movie on the topic ... it's on Netflix watch it ..
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Bajafun777
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It is the countries without Christian religion which are the most backward and evil in their dealings with their people especially women. Evil people
do evil horrible things and it has nothing to do with the Christian religion or those that have accepted Jesus as their Savior. I will say a prayer
for those of you that do not believe Jesus is your path to heaven.
Our USA was founded by those that believed in God along with the teachings of Jesus. Our founding fathers also knew and believed that religion was a
good thing. Separation of church and State was never meant to mean that we needed laws to take away religion's part in our Country. You can keep
your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire, which will be so sad!!
Christians have done more to help people throughout the USA and other countries than any other religion or foreign government. If you look to science
to explain everything then you are already in trouble because it won't. Faith along with Christian lifestyles are what keeps this USA from the pits
of crap like other non-Christian countries. This is especially true for the islamic countries with their pedifile lowlife whose body can be found in
a grave for a reason.
Christians have withstood attacks by those who do not believe or those that wish to destroy us but they can't take away from "IN GOD WE TRUST." May
GOD be with you and the love of Jesus find your heart. Take Care & Travel Safe-----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
You can keep your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire....... |
Thanks for this lovely and informative post Bajafun777. It reminds me, in the immortal words of Bertrand Russell, why I am not a christian.
A god who offers absolutely no evidence for his/her existence, yet who would barbeque me in hell for eternity just for not believing in him/her, no
matter how good my life was otherwise, is just too cruel and immoral to be real.
carpe diem!
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Osprey
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Spinoza, the first vocal, open pantheist struck a tenous balance by declaring his God was nature magnified to infinity. The view represents, to me, a
massive glue that becomes very convenient. God as nature becomes as stunningly uber as any diety, all things considered and lessons learned at
nature's knee could be very humbling (as in "dead or alive", saved by the bell moments). Who/what is more powerfully grand and awful than what we
already know about nature?
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paranewbi
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
You can keep your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire....... |
Thanks for this lovely and informative post Bajafun777. It reminds me, in the immortal words of Bertrand Russell, why I am not a christian.
A god who offers absolutely no evidence for his/her existence, yet who would barbeque me in hell for eternity just for not believing in him/her, no
matter how good my life was otherwise, is just too cruel and immoral to be real. |
Interesting Ken.
Why would God deal any other way with a person who just made the statement you did. You have chosen to not take what was offered and determined your
own eternity. How more gracious could God be then to allow us to make our own choices...no matter how cruel we are to ourselves (and each other).
"But Abraham said. "If they won't listen to MOses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead."" NLT Luke 16:31
-11 others (not John) went to their death on the basis of seeing someone rise from the dead.
-Over 500 others saw a person raised from the dead.
-The prevailing government in a matter of years felt threatened by a 'religion' founded on someone rising from the dead.
I could go on and on but...'they won't listen'
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Truth is less important than devotion. |
So disappointed that you could possibly say that amigo. Please reconsider. How could ANYTHING be more important than truth? What benefit accrues by
devoting yourself to something that is not true?
carpe diem!
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paranewbi
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajafun777
You can keep your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire....... |
Thanks for this lovely and informative post Bajafun777. It reminds me, in the immortal words of Bertrand Russell, why I am not a christian.
A god who offers absolutely no evidence for his/her existence, yet who would barbeque me in hell for eternity just for not believing in him/her, no
matter how good my life was otherwise, is just too cruel and immoral to be real. |
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oxxo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
A healthy resolution of this developmental issue is the conclusion that " I am good and bad and that is good" (Get along with others who are also good
and bad). Less positive resolutions of this developmental issue generate destructive conclusions such as "I am good and others are bad" (Do away with
others) or "I am bad and others are good" (Depression and Masochism), "I am bad and others are bad" (Nihilism, Sadism and Sociopathy, Do away with
them and me). |
This concept is the subject of a book, "I'm Okay, You're Okay" written by an acquaintance of mine, an academic. Honest exploration and examination of
any subject, religion for example, can lead to mutual understanding, if not agreement.
the Brazilian theologist Leonardo Boff wrote:
In a round table discussion about religion and freedom in which Dalai Lama
and myself were participating at recess, I maliciously and also with interest, asked him: “Your holiness, what is the best religion?”
I thought he would say: “The Tibetan Buddhism” or “The oriental religions, much older than Christianity.”
The Dalai Lama paused, smiled and looked me in the eyes …. which surprised me because I knew of the malice contained in my question.
He answered: “The best religion is the one that gets you closest to God. It is the one that makes you a better person.”
To get out of my embarrassment with such a wise answer, I asked: “What is it that makes me better?”
He responded:
“Whatever makes you
more compassionate,
more sensible,
more detached,
more loving,
more humanitarian,
more responsible,
more ethical.”
“The religion that will do that for you is the best religion”
I was silent for a moment, marveling and even today thinking of his wise and irrefutable response:
“I am not interested, my friend, about your religion or if you are religious or not.
“What really is important to me is your behavior in front of your peers, family, work, community, and in front of the world.
“Remember, the universe is the echo of our actions and our thoughts.”
“The law of action and reaction is not exclusively for physics. It is also of human relations. If I act with goodness, I will receive goodness. If I
act with evil, I will get evil.”
“What our grandparents told us is the pure truth. You will always have what you desire for others. Being happy is not a matter of destiny. It is a
matter of options.”
Finally he said:
“Take care of your Thoughts because they become Words.
Take care of your Words because they will become Actions.
Take care of your Actions because they will become Habits.
Take care of your Habits because they will form your Character.
Take care of your Character because it will form your Destiny,
and your Destiny will be your Life
… and …
“There is no religion higher than the Truth.”
This exchange has given me, personally, great comfort. Unfortunately, what I see around me is too many religions, specifically Christian and Muslim,
do not make many of their adherents better people. Is that the fault of the specific religion or specific people? My conclusion and answer is that
it is the fault of both. So I have taken his High, Holy Llamaness's advice. I, for one, am searching for "the Truth." I am convinced I have found
it. "The Truth" hasn't made me a perfect person, but I believe that it has made me an evolving better person.
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