| Pages:
1
2
3 |
Arthur
Nomad
Posts: 232
Registered: 10-2-2003
Location: San Anselmo, CA
Member Is Offline
|
|
Catch and release
What's the most success you can have with catch and release in saltwater? What's the worst? (say, over time, over a good number of fish) Can you
expect 50% of the fish to be truly unharmed, or what? I've seen some ugly catches with barbless hooks in fresh water.
|
|
|
Mike Supino
Nomad
Posts: 351
Registered: 10-16-2002
Member Is Offline
|
|
I viewed a documentary involving bill fish that were hooked and released.
They also installed tracking devices on the fish.
Less than 1/3 survived more than three days.
After three days the transmitters quit operating.
You can come to your own conclusions.
My take is to not target them at all and to always use heavy tackle to decrease the fight time for better survival.
|
|
|
Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
|
|
Sport fishing is sadistic. 
|
|
|
eetdrt88
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: Az/Ca/Baja
Member Is Offline
|
|
have to agree...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Sport fishing is sadistic. |
fish should be left alone unless youre eating them....whats the point of pulling one out just to look at??
|
|
|
Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
|
|
I disagree
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Sport fishing is sadistic. |
sadism - the getting of pleasure, specifically sexual pleasure, from hurting or mistreating another, others.
I don't think a fisherman's pleasure is related to hurting the fish. It's complicated and overanalyzing it ruins it for me. But it's not sadistic, I
can tell you that.
skipjack
|
|
|
Frank
Senior Nomad
Posts: 861
Registered: 6-5-2005
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Is it time to leave yet?
|
|
With the use of circle hooks and the correct tackle to bring down the fight time its very successful.
Cricle hooks by design will only hook a fish in the corner of the mouth. It requires a different hook set technique.
On a regular J hook, if you wait too long to set the hook the fish can be gut hooked and start to bleed. We keep any bleeders for dinner.
As far as Billfishing and tracking devices, how do they know they didnt survive? Did they find the body? These fish a pelagic, they travel. How
do they know if the fish simply went deep? Maybe the tag fell out. Lots of things could of happened.
As a fisherman, I want and need this resource to be healthy. If we {my sons and I} feel we ar doing harm to the resource we change tactics. For
instances, last year we were in a wide open Dorado bite. We had dinner already so we clipped off the hooks off of the lures and just enjoyed the fish
whacking the lure into the air, over and over again.
Sadistic. Well everyone has a opinion and I respect that. For me it would be Sadistic to keep my off the water and not fishing. It fills a need I
have
{a caveman thing}, just like the need we all have to be in Baja and away from "civilization".
Fishing also keeps me grounded and my sons outdoors with there Dad and Grandpa. 3 generations on the water. In the days of Playstation2 and the
internet, this is a very needful thing. Frank
|
|
|
yankeeirishman
Banned
Posts: 1070
Registered: 3-5-2004
Location: Kalifornia
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Sport fishing is sadistic. |
You kidding, right?
What control freaks there are here. Don\'t believe that post you just read!
|
|
|
pokey
Nomad
Posts: 199
Registered: 5-20-2005
Location: ensenada
Member Is Offline
Mood: sun burned
|
|
Most of the fisherman that I know practice catch & release in fresh water. I'm an avid flyfisherman who enjoys chasing steelhead and salmon in
the Pac NW. If I'm fishing a river that has mostly hatchery runs I'll keep as many adipose fin clipped fish that I legally can. If I'm fishing
rivers that see mostly wild runs I'll use barbless hooks and limit my fishing time on the river. I suspect that catch & release success rates
are low in ocean caught fish due to the depths and amt of fight in the fish.
I use to commercial fish and have worked on the charter boats out of point loma. For some reason folks who fish in the ocean don't share the same
catch & release ethic that fresh water sportsman do. Thats been my experience anyways.
Personally if I'm ocean fishing I'm also looking for some fish to put on the stove. So I go after the more easily caught species like tuna or
even surf perch. I guess the idea of filleting a 500 lb Marlin isn't what I'd call fun. And, honestly, the idea of killing an ocean predator as
magnificent as a marlin or sail fish doesn't appeal to me.
|
|
|
gonetobaja
Nomad
Posts: 286
Registered: 1-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Im gonna have to agree with eetdrt88,
If you are going to harvest a fish from the ocean than do it. But dont go hooking whatever you can just for the fun of it. Athough I am a die hard
spearfisherman and eat fish for most of my meals my opinion is that catch and release fishing is only better than catch and kill everything you get
fishing. Lets not kid ourselves, how may times have you gut hooked a fish that was too small or not the right species and then "released" it back
into the water only to find it belly up 10 feet from the boat 20min later. Alot of ocean fish get very messed up(scientefik term) when you reel them
up from depth by their stomach lining. The pressure change alone can kill em. If you dont beleive me try swimming down 30 feet underwater and tell
me if your ears feel like someone has got your head in a vice. For fish its the reverse. When they come up from depth alot of the inner workings of
the fish get literaly "blown up" from the rapid de-pressureazation(Im a great speller). Im all for eating fish, and selective harvesting from the
ocean but the idea of hooking more fish than you can eat only to tire them out and then release them back to the ocean bleeding and spent for an easy
meal to predetors dosent sound like the way to go. I like the Idea of getting nailed on the hookless lures, that sounds like fun, and you dont really
harm the fish. The only way to selective harvest fish from the ocean in my opinion is by spearfishing. The fishermen(hunter) makes a concious
decision to take the fish only after he or she has made sure of the type and size they want for eating. In this manner the harvester is sure that the
only thing getting the "shaft"(bad pun) is the actual fish that is getting shot. They die quick and then into the cooler. Nothing else is touched.
I am not saying that people should not fish with rod and reel, however I would say that alot of fish die and never make it to a plate as a result of
over selous fishermen on a wide open bite playin the catch and release game.
Get in the water and swim with the fish for a while, and at the end of the day if you are hungry, shoot one and eat it. If you have ever untangled an
infected seagull wrapped in monofiliment with a fish hook stuck in the side of his beak than you can see my point im my opinion. In baja spearfishing
is only legal while freediving(breathold diving with out tanks). This makes it more difficult than scuba spearing. As far as the sailfish catch and
release deal, I have seen whats in the water waiting for bleeding sailfish with no energy to get away. Sharks and sealions stalk the shadows of the
blue waiting for easy prey. Every fishermen knows the tale of the big fish he had on the line that was "stolen"(joke of a term) by a shark or sea
lion. Just the act of hooking a fish puts it at risk in the sea even if you get it to the boat alive and then "let em go..." I dont know if Id call
it sadistic though...now if you catch the fish and then beat your friend in the head with and it gives you pleasure then you let it go....now thats
sadistic...
Just my unsientefik no-data to bak me up opinon.
GTB
http://www.spearfishingvideos.com
|
|
|
Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by yankeeirishman
You kidding, right? |
Nope, dead serious.
Mistreatment of any creature solely for one's pleasure is sadistic. If you think it's not mistreatment, try to imagine being on the other end of the
line.
And no, I'm not a PETA freak. I both fish and hunt.
|
|
|
roundtuit
Senior Nomad
Posts: 607
Registered: 12-21-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wife's Job
|
|
Gee I hope you folks don't eat bacon, eggs, chicken,steakes or any of those that are raises in pens have have no chance I do
|
|
|
Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
|
|
hunting
Years ago we had a young married couple over for dinner. The husband enjoyed hunting and his wife was disgusted by the whole thing. They each felt so
strongly about it that it just came out during dinner. I silently sided with her until the following exchange, which I still remember:
She: "You just kill because you enjoy killing. Your sport is just a justification to kill"
He: "That's nonsense. If it were like that I would march up to some cow fenced in a coral and just blast it at close range".
|
|
|
Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
|
|
"What is moral is what feels good after"
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
I both fish and hunt. |
Dave, my first reaction was "Hah, now I got him. He thinks blood sports are sadistic, but he openly does it".
But now I respect you for this (oh, I know you don't need my respect, but it's there nonetheless). Most people just rationalize and justify their
values to meet what they already like and do . The OFF topic section is full of ideologues who search the internet for articles that support their
viewpoint. But you are enjoying something and have the courage to question the morality of what you're doing at the same time.
| Quote: |
Mistreatment of any creature solely for one's pleasure is sadistic.
|
But I really don't agree with the above statement.
My dad once told me of an encounter he had with the village sadist. This boy was playing with a mouse. He had poked the eyes of the mouse out, one by
one, with a needle and was laughing at the spectacle of the blind animal running around and bumping into objects.
This kid was a sadist, a real sadist. This kid had serious problems and would probably grow up to have a criminal mind.
A couple of months ago I read an entry on this board about the boyhood pleasures of castrating squirrels. That, too, I consider sadism.
As a fisherman, however, you don't leave the docks in the morning with the goal to hurt something. Even, when the fish is on the line I never think
about hurting it. That's not my intention.
It's a matter of degree. One is an aberration, a mental illness. The other is normal. Yes, it's normal to enjoy the hunt.
If fishing was sadistic then Hemingway and Zane Grey were sadists. Then the nobel prize had been given to an old sadist and his perverted way of life.
The world doesn't see it that way.
The idea that people practice catch and release to satisfy a sadistic need is unacceptable to me.
[Edited on 6-11-2005 by Skipjack Joe]
|
|
|
Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
|
|
Here is the Darwinian way of looking at it all. Our final goal is:
(1) to procreate
(2) we enjoy sex to procreate
(3) we eat to grow up to enjoy sex to procreate
(4) we enjoy eating to eat to grow up to enjoy sex to procreate
(5) we fish to enjoy eating to eat to grow up to enjoy sex to procreate
(6) we enjoy fishing to fish to enjoy eating to eat to grow up to enjoy sex to procreate
The idea is that we are and have been wired to enjoy doing all the things that ultimately lead to offspring. To deny this pleasure, feel guilty about
it, call it sadism, is in my mind, to deny what you are.
Well, I said that overanalyzing this thing just ruins it and I 've overanalyzed this thing to death.
[Edited on 6-11-2005 by Skipjack Joe]
|
|
|
baitcast
Super Nomad
Posts: 1785
Registered: 8-31-2003
Location: kingman AZ.
Member Is Offline
Mood: good
|
|
Sadistic
I think not,to fish is to hunt and in the begining we all were hunters,there is a basic need in me to read,to watch,to catch,to enjoy to whole
experience.
It is a waste of time to try and explain this to a nonfisherman and I won,t try.
To bait fish is to kill,in the early days it was bait or stay home.
The last 20 or 30 years as given us a huge selection of artificial lures to work with thus eliminating the need for bait which brings
about deep hook sets,if you must use bait of one or another use circle hooks.
I for one have not used bait of any kind for many years,true I may not catch as many but that is okay,I,m happy.
File or flatten the barbs,the real ticket is the extraction of the hooks,be carefull!!
To a non fisherman this is just a bunch of babble I know poor thing just does,nt understand
To call my sport sadistic I say get a life.
BAITCAST
When my time comes I hope the old man will let me bring my rod,and the water will be warm and clear
|
|
|
yankeeirishman
Banned
Posts: 1070
Registered: 3-5-2004
Location: Kalifornia
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Sport fishing is sadistic. |
I think I understand what you satement is about. I c/c a report below. BTW all...I am a fisherman too. I c/c this just for gathing your own
thoughts........
Pain
Fishing means intense pain and stress for millions of fish every year. Fish are treated in ways which would cause an outrage if cute, furry creatures
were involved - but fish suffer just as much.
Pain begins when the hook pierces the mouth and the fish is reeled in. Many people remove the hook while the fish is still alive. Anyone who has ever
had a fish hook stuck in their own flesh needs no convincing that this is extremely painful.
Pain is further increased if large fish are landed with a gaff hook. This large hook on a handle rips into the flesh of the live fish to pull it out
of the water.
Livebaiting is another barbaric activity that increases pain. A live small fish is threaded up as bait for larger fish. Here is one description of how
to do this, taken from a fishing magazine:
"The needle is passed through the front of the eye socket of both eyes. The material is then pulled through so that the hook sits on the head of the
baitfish."
Remember that the baitfish is alive and feels pain, just like a dog or a cat (or indeed a human) would.
Stress
Once out of the water, fish suffocate rather like we do underwater. In their death throes fish writhe, gasping and flapping their gills as they
desperately try to get oxygen. Anyone who has ever been unable to breathe even for a short time won't need convincing that this is a terrifying
experience.
Intense stress is also caused by livebaiting and "playing" fish on the line, as is done particularly with big game fish such as marlin. Research has
compared the behaviour of fish in these two situations with the behaviour of fish in a tank into which alarm substance had been released. Alarm
substance is normally released by injured fish. This chemical causes panic in other fish, who flee as quickly as possible. In the experiment, the
behaviour produced by the alarm substance was very similar to behaviour produced by livebaiting and game fishing. So, these activities cause panic,
like alarm substance, but the fish can't escape and the panic may go on for hours.
Attitudes to Fish
It's hard for fish to arouse our compassion. They can't show their agony by screaming. They don't have the sad eyes of a seal pup or a dog.
In an article in The Adelaide Advertiser, Professor Bill Runciman, professor of anaesthesia and intensive care at Adelaide University, was quoted as
saying:
"Fish constitute the greatest source of confused thinking and inconsistency on earth at the moment with respect to pain. You will get people very
excited about dolphins because they are mammals, and about horses and dogs, if they are not treated properly. At the same time you will have fishing
competitions on the River Murray at which thousands of people snare fish with hooks and allow them to asphyxiate on the banks, which is a fairly
uncomfortable and miserable death."
Since fish have the same nerve endings, the same chemicals for transmitting and blocking pain, and the same receptor sites for anxiety-reducing
chemicals as mammals, it is absolute nonsense to suggest that fish do not feel pain or fear.
Experiments
Animal experimenters acknowledge that fish feel pain and stress. In one of its newsletters, the Australian Council for the Care of Animals in Research
and Teaching advised researchers to reduce the pain and stress suffered by cold-blooded vertebrates (including fish) used in experiments.
The article recommended that: "humane restraint, analgesia and anaesthetic should be adopted whenever necessary. Adequate levels of analgesia reduce
apprehension and stress, and decrease or suppress the perception of painful stimuli."
Fish Feel Pain
If fish can't show their pain, how can we know whether they feel pain at all? There is very strong scientific evidence to show that they do.
Fish have nerve endings near the skin which are very similar to those of humans and other mammals. We all have receptor cells (called nociceptors)
near the skin, which are stimulated by events severe enough to cause damage to body tissues. The lips and mouth of fish are particularly well supplied
with nerve endings.
Fish produce the same pain-transmitting chemicals as humans. There are two main chemicals involved. When a nerve ending is damaged, a substance called
bradykinin is released. This causes the nerve cell to fire, sending an electrical impulse along the nerve. When bradykinin is released near the skin,
a second chemical, called substance P, is released near the spinal cord.
Both substances are known to be involved in transmitting pain. For example, if bradykinin is injected into humans, it causes intense pain, even if a
local anaesthetic is used. Both bradykinin and substance P are found in mammals, birds, frogs and fish.
Fish produce the same pain-blocking substances as humans. When in severe pain, humans and other vertebrates (animals with backbones) produce
pain-killing chemicals called endorphins. These endorphins block pain by stopping the release of substance P.
Fish Feel Anxiety
For any chemical to be able to affect our brain, there must be special areas in the brain, called receptor sites, to which the chemical can attach.
Fish, like mammals, have receptor sites for anxiety-reducing chemicals, such as the valium group of drugs. Dr Andrew Rowan, a Dean of Veterinary
Science, has said: "This suggests that most vertebrates are capable of experiencing a form of anxiety which is physiologically similar to that seen in
humans."
What YOU Can Do
Choose ways of relaxing and enjoying the outdoors that do not cause suffering to animals.
If people you know won't give up fishing, at least try to convince them to kill fish as soon as they are pulled from the water, rather than removing
hooks while they are still alive and letting them suffocate.
In NSW, fish come under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act (POCTA). Write to the Minister for Agriculture and say how barbaric you consider
gaffing, live-baiting and big-game fishing to be. Say you want them banned as cruel under the provisions of POCTA.
[Edited on 6-11-2005 by yankeeirishman]
What control freaks there are here. Don\'t believe that post you just read!
|
|
|
TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Member Is Offline
|
|
Cutting a tomato hurts it and causes it to scream, therefore leave them alone and starve for the good of mankind.
|
|
|
Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mellow
|
|
All of this controversy would be avoided if everyone would just adjust a little and practice catch, filet, and release.
++Ken++
Just kidding, I couldn't resist 
|
|
|
backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
|
|
No fishing? Screaming tomatos? Sigh... pass the tofu please.
|
|
|
gonetobaja
Nomad
Posts: 286
Registered: 1-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
I thought I liked to spearfish because of the time I spent in the ocean and the experience, not to mention the food.
Now I find out its just because Im horny?
Well sounds like a good reason to me , Im leavin tomorrow!!
Its ok to love to fish, just dont "love" the fish.
GTB
"sex crazed fish killer....":moon:
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
