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bajaden
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Posts: 496
Registered: 4-7-2005
Location: Ensenada
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home generator
Bearing in mind that my electrical expertise consists of plugging something in to a wall socket, does anyone know how to wire a generator as a backup
power supply for a house. My wife has ms and doesn't tolerate heat very well, so I have to have some sort of backup. Im open to all suggestions.
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Tucker
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Start at this website for a general idea. You'll need the generator in addition to the auto-transfer device.
http://www.portable-electric-power-generators.com/p_briggs_s...
\"I think it would be a good idea.\"
-- Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization
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Bruce R Leech
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Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
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Yes Den I have done it many times
1 you will need a three way disconnect large enough to Handel the amperage of your house.
2 a generator large enough to supply your house.
you can also do the same thing on a smaller scale to back up just the air conditioner and a couple of light bulbs.
remember that if you have an air conditioner that draws 2000 watts that you will need a generator of about 3500 watts output to start it .
I hope this helps
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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turtleandtoad
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Depends on how fancy you want to get.
For whole house power:
You can just run both the normal and the e-gen power to a manual transfer switch; in which case you have to start the generator and change over the
power yourself;
Or you can go fully automatic with a voltage loss circuit controling an auto-start on your e-gen and an ATS (Auto Transfer Switch) to do the
change-over. You can also automate the change back and shut-down.
Or, as Bruce mentioned, you can set up either of the above system to power just certain loads. This requires a few more components (distribution
panel, extra transfer switches - manual or ATS), and some existing wiring changes, but you don't need as large a generator.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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JZ
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If you are going to make a statement like that why don't you bother to explain yourself.
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turtleandtoad
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Bruce,
Where am I wrong and why is it bad advice. Everything I said is blessed by the US National Electrical Code (NEC).
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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roundtuit
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Generators
There are several ways you can do this, but you must always make such your main power is shut off so you don't back feed to the incoming line or you
can fry a lineman. I have a setup where I back feed through my weilder plug to a sub panel. But if you don't know what you are doing sugguest you
consult someone with the knowhow 
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turtleandtoad
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That is why you need a transfer switch, either manual or automatic. It will only connect to either the incoming power or the generator. It's
physically impossible to back feed when you use one.
They are also called 3-way disconnects, Manual Bus transfers (MBT), or Automatic Bus Transfers (ABT). Although the ABT is actually a brand name, ABT
inc.
There are a lot of technical considerations when designing such a system, such as wire size, conductor lengths, load balance, component ampacity, and
specific installation procedures. So, for safety, always have a competent electrical type do the design and at least oversee the work.
By the way, backfeeding through a receptacle, such as a welding outlet or dryer plug is illegal in every state in the US and most overseas countries.
It's been responsible for numerous deaths (mostly of linemen trying to restore power) and house fires.
Professionally, I have designed over 50 emergency power systems and have had them approved by the regulatory agencies in the US and 7 foreign
countries.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
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Bruce,
I think you misread me. I didn't state that a manual transfer switch would only work on certain loads. I re-stated what you said, that emergency power
can be set up for just certain loads (rather than the whole house) and that this can be done either manually or automatic.
I did state that to isolate and supply just certain loads you have to add some components and do some re-wiring. This is true, you have to move the
loads you want to supply to a separate panel and install the transfer switch between this panel and the normal source (or install a second transfer
switch). These switches can be either manual or automatic.
This isn't the only way to do it, just the cheapest. You can accomplish the same thing by changing all your circuit breakers to shunt trip types so
you can automatically turn off the ones you don't want to be powered by the e-gen. But this is much more complicated and normally much more expensive.
There are other approaches but they don't really apply to home use.
As to the cost; I didn't say it would be cheap to install an automatic system. I just stated that this is an option. For people that have a medical
reason for needing a back-up power source, cost may not be a factor.
But actually, with modern technology, it's not as expensive as some would think. For example, you can get a complete 15,000W whole house package from
Home Depot for about $3000. This includes the Gen Set, Automatic Transfer Switch, Load Center, 30 ft., 5 ft. & 2 ft. pre-wired conduits, outdoor
connection box, flexible fuel line and composite mounting pad and has a 30 HP OHVI Industrial engine which
is either natural gas or LP gas powered and has a pressurized oil system. Everthing is enclosed in an outdoor, soundproof cabinet so noise isn't a
problem.(there are also gas and diesel systems available). These are self-contained units with their own cooling system. I've used similar units (only
diesel) in the middle of the Saudi deserts and never had a problem
Warm up is not needed and it doesn't require engine pre-heat unless you are living in an area that experiences sub zero temperatures. Then you might
need pre-heat but, because of the soundproof enclosure, a 500 watt heater is sufficient. Bajaden didn't mention what geographical area he is in. Since
this is the Baja forum, I assumed that he was in Baja, where pre-heat isn't a factor.
The change-over point is adjustable so, if you're in an area that is plagued by brownouts or frequent flickering, you can adjust it anywhere from 30
seconds to 10 minutes.
If you want to buy the stuff individually, you can get an ASCO 200 amp ATS (Series 165) for about 1,000 or the same thing in a 200 amp MTS for about
$725. So the difference between automatic and manual is about $275.
Of course you're right about the manual system only taking a minute or two to put online and is probably what I'll be putting in myself. But if power
is out for an extended period of time (and I'm not there) I might lose whatever I have in the freezer
It's all up to the individual, I'm just pointing out some options.
[Edited on 6-17-2005 by turtleandtoad]
[Edited on 6-17-2005 by turtleandtoad]
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
Member Is Offline
Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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| Quote: | Originally posted by turtleandtoad
That is why you need a transfer switch, either manual or automatic. It will only connect to either the incoming power or the generator. It's
physically impossible to back feed when you use one.
They are also called 3-way disconnects, Manual Bus transfers (MBT), or Automatic Bus Transfers (ABT). Although the ABT is actually a brand name, ABT
inc.
There are a lot of technical considerations when designing such a system, such as wire size, conductor lengths, load balance, component ampacity, and
specific installation procedures. So, for safety, always have a competent electrical type do the design and at least oversee the work.
By the way, backfeeding through a receptacle, such as a welding outlet or dryer plug is illegal in every state in the US and most overseas countries.
It's been responsible for numerous deaths (mostly of linemen trying to restore power) and house fires.
Professionally, I have designed over 50 emergency power systems and have had them approved by the regulatory agencies in the US and 7 foreign
countries. |
this is much better advice this time Mr. toad.
I think the problem here is you are over engineer the system . Bajaden is a good friend of mine and he has a small apartment and is just concerned
with keeping the conditioner going in case of a long power failure.
what system to you have on your R.V it is about the same size as his home. do you really need a fully automatic switch over? or can you stand to push
the start button on the gen set and while it is worming up go and through the 3 way disconnect.
the 3 way disconnect is easy to install under Mexican code. it can go any where between the regular disconnect at the meter and the distribution Panel
[breaker panel]. here they use #8 copper for the service to most houses. so use the same to connect the gen-set and you are in business.
it is nice to live in Mexico.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
Registered: 1-20-2005
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Bruce,
I think you're right, I've got to learn how to take that engineer's hat off now that I'm retired. At least in Mexico
Just have someone slap me up side of the head when you see me lapsing into "engineer" mode.
Mike
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
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Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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I have the same problem after 35 years of being an engineer. I'm just wish I could spell better. when are you going to be here again?
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
Registered: 1-20-2005
Location: Wherever I park. See sig for current location.
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I'll be back in January and plan on hanging around until May. Maybe you can point me towards some property while I'm there this time.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
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Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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OK good . BajaDen and his wife Noel are moving down here in July. he is going to tough it out year round with me so I will have some company.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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Propane Generators????
Enough out there to feed 1600 sq ft house as back up.?
who has best propane generators?
What size would be more then ample?
Want all automatic.....Any info is good info Gracias George
moving further south in October..............
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
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Yup, propane generators, Just go to the Home Depot website and type in "Emergency Generators" in the search box and you'll see a bunch of "whole
house" sets.
The size you need depends on how much power you want, not on sq ft. In the US I'd say check the amprage of your main breaker for a rough estimate of
max size but, as Bruce has pointed out, this ain't the US, so the only way I can suggest is to make a list of all the stuff in the house and it's
approximate power needs. Then apply a "use factor" (how many hours per 24 hour day that it is in use, 1 being a load running 24 hours, 0.5 being a
load running 12 hours, etc; Multiply all loads by their use factor and then add the results up, make sure your working in all amps or all watts) to
determine how large a genset you need. If you decide to do it this way, and need help on this let me know.
Otherwise, maybe Bruce or some other "old hand" in Baja knows a better way to estimate your whole house needs based on something in your existing
electrical setup.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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PacO
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Posts: 173
Registered: 1-19-2005
Location: waiting for the sun
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I've been looking at propane vs. diesel and although the propane has the advantage in wear and maintenence (from my understanding, I've been wrong
b4), the diesel fuel seems like it is much easier for the volume I'll end up needing to acquire. The LP generaters are certainly more readily acquired
for the dollars. I wonder if you could order one thru Home Depot and pick it up at the one in TJ? That would take care of the aduana issue.
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bajaden
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Registered: 4-7-2005
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Wow... I never expected this many responses. I must admit Mr Toad, I had no idea what you were talking about, but I suspect Bruce does. By the way
Bruce, Noel tells me her mom worked for an ingineering firm for many years and said they all had one thing in common. None of them could spell. So
don't feel bad. There are many people in this world who are great spellers, but are seriously lacking when it comes to communication. Its the content
that matters. Thanks to everyone for the information. I did actually assimilate some of it. Im counting on Bruce to help me with the rest.
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turtleandtoad
Senior Nomad
Posts: 730
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Oh, I forgot to mention, if you're trying to calculate the genset size you also have to take into consideration the STARTING current of reactive loads
(anything with a motor or transformer) such as refrigerators, pumps, TV's, air conditioners, etc.
Mike & Robin; Full-Time RV\'ers
37\' Georgetown w/3 slides & 275 Watts of Solar Power
06 Taco TRD
www.turtleandtoad.com
I am here
To paraphrase Frank Lloyd Wright; I\'m all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let\'s start with keyboards. --
Mike Dean |
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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Muchas Gracias Amigos...again Nomads, a living Almanac...
THere is supposed to be a Home Depot opening in Cabo also..yeehah!
Will figure it out and will certainly call on you T & T if help is needed.
Thanks to all Nomads for being so ready to help!! George
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