flyfishinPam
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More Americans boost Baja real estate boom
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-11-30-baja-boom_x.ht...
More Americans boost Baja real estate boom
By Danna Harman, USA TODAY
LORETO, Mexico ? When David Butterfield and his wife, Norma, turned 50 a few years back, they started thinking about retirement. Florida: not their
style. Southern California: too much of a car town. Hawaii: too far from family.
The Villages of Loreto Bay is the largest real estate deal ever permitted by the Mexican government.
By Danna Harman, The Christian Science Monitor
Then they stumbled on Loreto, a small Mexican fishing village cradled between craggy mountain ridges that tumble into the Sea of Cortes, also known as
the Gulf of California.
The Butterfields, Canadian-Americans who live in Scottsdale, Ariz., are in many ways typical of thousands of Americans who have, in the last decade,
chosen to buy or build homes south of the border. In one way, though, the Butterfields are different. David Butterfield, a multimillionaire developer,
got so excited about the possibilities that he decided to build not only his dream home, but a $3 billion, 6,000-home resort.
Within two years, 524 other buyers had signed up to be his neighbors and had put down a combined $200 million. Sales are still going strong. "It's
coming together beautifully," Butterfield says.
The Villages of Loreto Bay is the largest real estate deal ever permitted by the Mexican government. It's also Baja's most ambitious housing project
to date. At the moment, there isn't much on the 8,000-acre site besides hundreds of construction workers and a few prospective buyers. About 160
houses are under construction. Only one is occupied.
If all goes according to plan, within 12-15 years the development will include two 18-hole championship golf courses, a 5,000-acre nature preserve, a
beach club, tennis center, marina, restaurants, boutiques and galleries for the mainly American and Canadian homeowners. Loreto's population is likely
to grow from about 15,000 today to 120,000 by 2020, says Victor Manuel Castorena Davis, a member of Loreto's urban development commission.
The faith that Butterfield, his partner James Grogan and the Mexican government have in the development is based on a clear trend: a Baja California
housing rush. Baja has long been a haven for Americans looking for a lower cost of living, cheaper health care, warm weather and a more relaxed pace.
The 20-mile stretch of coastline between the towns of Cabo San Lucas and San Jos? del Cabo on the southernmost tip of Baja already is crowded with
hotels, private clubs and designer golf courses.
The housing boom outside the two towns started about five years ago. Development was spurred by skyrocketing real estate prices in the USA and changes
to Mexican laws in the wake of the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) that encourage foreign investment and make purchasing beachfront
land easier.
Baja's proximity ? the slim, 800-mile-long finger of land extends south from the California-Mexico border ? also attracts Americans who are more
fearful about venturing far in the post-Sept. 11 world, say real estate agents including Gustavo Torres, who works in Northern Baja's Rosarito Beach,
a one-hour drive south of San Diego.
Torres says his firm, ReMax, sells 10-20 properties a week. "Sales here have quadrupled in the last two years," he says. Prices have risen 15%-20% a
year. About one-quarter of the 55,000 residents in Rosarito today are Americans. He predicts the next hot area will be Ensenada, an hour's drive south
down the coast. Loreto, about halfway down the peninsula, he adds, "is what the future is all about."
The Loreto Bay homes are priced from the mid-$200,000s for a 1,500-square-foot, single-family home to more than $2 million for a custom-designed,
oceanfront house. Prices in the San Diego area can be three times higher. "The days of finding a $30,000 beachfront property in Baja, are, basically,
over," Torres says. (Related story: Some worry town will grow too fast)
Prices are not the only thing changing in Baja. When Tijuana-based real estate agent Nicolas Renard started selling property in Baja 15 years ago, "it
was rare to see someone in their 30s." But today, he sees younger and wealthier buyers. "They are looking to make a profit," Renard says. The average
age of buyers at the Villages of Loreto Bay is 45, says Darlene Tait, the project's director of marketing.
Arturo Rolland, a real estate agent based in San Diego, says Mexican-Americans are helping fuel the trend. "They want to be back in Mexico, but not
too far away from their families in the U.S.," he says.
Anne Thanhouser, 52, an assets manager from Portland, Ore., visited Loreto on a whim last year. Like the Butterfields, she was looking for a dream
home. She is now building it on Lot 103. Thanhouser put down $555,000 for a 2,000-square-foot, three-bedroom house that is three blocks from the
ocean.
It will be ready, she is told, in two years. Meanwhile, she has been here two times to get to know the beach and review the floor plans. "It's
perfect," she says. "It's hard to believe what's happening here."
Harman is the Latin America bureau chief for USA TODAY and The Christian Science Monitor.
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Phil C
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$555 K! Mr. Butterfield has done some job. I wonder how much of that will stay in Loreto?
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Mike Humfreville
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Pam,
Thanks for the update. I know Loreto is a long way from Bahia de Los Angeles in many ways but I feel the changes coming to our bay as well. In my
mind I just don't want to see the locals swept aside by big government developers. I do feel that the infrastructure will likely improve with the
influx and then everyione will win. Bahia de Los Angeles has a simple yet effective clinic, a six-year educational system, but no full time
electricity and limited running water only in the village. While most of the ~200 Americans live outside the village and rely on solar, pilas and are
pretty much self-contained, the villagers would clearly benefit from the additional infrastructure additional tourism would provide, as long as we
remain cooperative and considerate regardless of our incomes and wealth or lack of them. It's a very interesting world when we are all different, but
none of us better than anyone else.
Thanks for the information. Hope all is well with you guys. If you're ever in the area of Bahia de Los Angeles, stop by.
Mike
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Skeet/Loreto
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It is my Hope and Prayer that all the money being made and developed by Loreto Bay Villages, will filter down to better Medical Facilities for Loreto
and its People.
It seems that all that remains is gettin WATER!!!!!!
Skeet/Loreto
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Dave
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Sorry, Skeet
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
It is my Hope and Prayer that all the money being made and developed by Loreto Bay Villages, will filter down to better Medical Facilities for
Loreto and its People.
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Maybe better medical facilities for Loreto Bay residents.
Unfortunately, the "trickle down" philosopy don't work, for two reasons:
The federal government is 'in bed' with the developers.
What little money is promised at the local level will be siphoned off by local corruption.
If the Mexico were serious about the welfare of their citizens then they would hold foreign investor's feet to the fire.
(Of course if they did, then there wouldn't be any foreign investment.) 
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Skeet/Loreto
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Dave I have to disagree that the money will not filter Down. Reason, Iwas there when the New Presidente was Built, Nopollo was developed etc.Also when
the French left $5 million at Escondido.
Loreto was only about 2500 Strong in 68, it has now increased, more people from the Mainland, more Schools, Paved Streets, Lighting, the Malacon,
Resturants, etc.
The 500 or so people that have bought will , if theycome to Loreto, will buy from the Stores in Loreto .
I became Friends with a Couple from the Mainland, who came to work on the Presidente and stayed. there are quite a few more that stayed and helped
increase the Population of Loreto.
Look a Cabo and the number of people working for all the Tourists. Look at La Paz andth money coming in from Los Cabs and San Jose.
Overall it will help many more people than it will Hurt.
If they can find the WATER!!
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Don Alley
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At least this version of the Christian Science Monitor story leaves out the claim that Loreto doesn't have hurricanes. 
Change is coming at a fast pace. A new Yamuni store just opened to the sound of live Banda music, with upscale (for Baja) bedroom sets and other
furniture. I see more kids driving customized cars. A new Pemex is going up near our place, and small tiendas everywhere. There is much more traffic
than just a couple of years ago, driving on more paved streets. And more loud sub-woofers in the cars.
Money is trickling down and the population is growing. I know locals who have gotten work related to the new developments and their standard of living
is rising.
We can't sit back in our casas and wish the Loretanos were still hook and line fishing from sail powered dugouts, and tending goats. They want nice
homes and cars, tvs and dvd players, stereos and cell phones. So many (but not all) welcome the development.
But I've recently moved after 30+ years in booming northwest Montana (and Mendocino before that) and I've seen the darkside of development. There are
few safeguards in place here. We'll see more traffic, more fatalities, more crime, and, ironically with more wealth will also come more poverty.
Property values and rents will go up, enriching some but impoverishing others. More basura and pollution. Higher taxes. But most of all, even the
Loreto Bay hype holds the small town of Loreto up as a (the?) main attraction, a sentiment I share, yet is leading the charge to increase the
population by a factor of 10.
And what's going to happen to the fishing when the population goes from 12,000 to 60,000? To 120,000?
Water? The investors are beginning to throw around so much money that they'll figure that out. A new power plant and desalinization plants, coupled
with newly metered, higher priced and perhaps rationed water for the locals, and unlimited supplies for the lushly planted hotels, condos and golf
courses.
But I'll believe all the claims of Loreto Bay and their "sustainability" when I see them.
I did visit their (Loreto Bay's) nursery a couple of days ago. I hate to say anything nice about them, lol, but it is a really nice nursery.
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Capt. George
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Glad I went where I am when I did! A blink of an eye and even there it's growing. Baby boomers...lotsa money and looking for a place of peace.
Can you blame them? Come on down. I refuse to become a:
"got miner" George
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Skeet/Loreto
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Very good "Read" and Report on Loreto. thanks Don.
The same thing started after The Road, Telephones, and TV came to Loreto.
I remember the look on some of the Facs when the First Cement Transit Mixer arrived to pave the streets, also the number of workers putting in the
concrete Tiles that is now part Walk way from the Pescador to the Plaza.
Those jobs alone created more Population/Money
I personally think that the fishing will decline in the future, due to the distance that has to be traveled to get to the Good fishing as well as the
time involved. The ones who charter will start looking at a Boat of their Own or go to a Better location.
Fishing will not be the 'Draw of the Future" for :Loreto. It will be the Weather and Location and Beauty of the Area.
There is no longer 75-80 Pangas on the Bait Hole every morning of the Week as there was 20 years ago. The dudes with their $100,000 Boats do not want
to get up at 4 Am or sleep on the Beach for the Early morning Bite.
Time will tell!
Skeet/Loreto
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mrchuck
Junior Nomad
Posts: 82
Registered: 11-6-2002
Location: Gun Barrel City, TX
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
"I personally think that the fishing will decline in the future, due to the distance that has to be traveled to get to the Good fishing as well as the
time involved."
Skeet/Loreto |
WELL HOORAY!!!! This is the absolutely First time that Skeet has actually said that "fishing will decline in the future, in Loreto".
Skeet, the fishing there in Loreto has ALREADY declined.
This is an absolute fact to anybody that lives there full time, in Loreto, versus "someone's old memory of how it used to be."
I am surprised that you have said this, but glad that you finally have.
Maybe it is that "bone freezing cold wind" blowing over your place of residence in Amarillo, Texas,,,, that has brought you to the true reality of the
present state of Loreto, BCS, MX. fishing conditions.
Skeet, you are absolutely "RIGHT" by saying "where's the water coming from"??
Every time I drive by this "new Loreto development" being constructed, and compare it mentally with what the Developer's are saying will happen, my
thoughts flash to the development named "California City", out in the Mojave Desert of the 1960's..... then and now,,,,....
Loreto most likely, will end up in somewhat the same level of development as California City has.
Skeet, have you gone over to Lake Meredith, which is real near you in Amarillo,,,and fished there yet?
Keep warm, and maybe see you down here sometime.
Saludos,,,,,,,,mc
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Skeet/Loreto
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Now! Now! Mr. Chuck!!!!
I said the "fishing will Decline" Not the Fish!!!!
Serioulsy I know that the "Fish" has declined and that the "Fishing" has also declined. About 4 months ago Alvaro and I pulled 4 35Lb Yellow tail
from a Hole about 1/2 Mile off of Coronado. We did the same last year.
For me I am always able to catch all the fish I can use, but it is very noticeable the Large Decline in the Number of fisherman.
Chuck; Have you noticed any increase in the Number of Pangas going out, or is most of the fishng being done with the charters?
I firmly believe that if fishing was completely stopped from Loreto to 25 Miles out, that the fishing would come back real strong.
Every time I go North or South 25 to 30 miles I see more Fish and less Fisherman. And old Trick I had for years was to sleep on the beach just this
side of Pt. Lobos, then before first Light catch the schools of YellowTail in Shallow water.
I could still do it!!
Lake Merideth is down by 60 Feet. Lake mcKensie is doing much better this Year.
Really enjoy the cold Days as you know the Sun usually shines bright. And I can look out across the Plains and do not see Cars and People!!!!
I will hope that they find Water somewhere as ther are a lot of good _People in Loreto.
Say Hello to Domingo at the El Nido
Skeet/Loreto
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mrchuck
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Location: Gun Barrel City, TX
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I would "surmise" that most of these new homeowner's who have purchased lots, and planning to build in Loreto Bay, will not have personal boats. Some
will go fishing on the charter boats available in Loreto.
But I expect that 90 % are not buying and building, and going to live in Loreto in order to fish. This is my own personal opinion, nothing more.
Their has also been a large decline in personal boat fishermen traveling here this past year. The people who live here still fish, but not as much as
before, due to the decline of fish available.
The dorado showed up really late, only a few weeks ago. Before this, they were could not be found unless you were in a charter cruiser 45 to 50 miles
out.
Yes, we have a lot,lot more charter cruisers here now. Around 200 in the water, on anchor, in September. Also at least 50 pangas awaiting charter
clients.
The amount of private cruisers and pangas here, only amount to 50 or so, maximum total, and only in the height of the season in May, June.
You will never be able to stop fishing here or there, and why?
Mexican fish and game officials are non-existent around here, and has been for many, many years. No hotel or charter service complies with the bag
limits, and never really has, except for maybe the billfish.
All commercial pangas here, and personalcruisers owned by mexicans(not hotel charters) bring in everything they catch.
This last year, 8 marlin were hanging is a mexican's back yard during one of their family get-togethers.
My favorite t-shirt says "fillet and release" on it, even though I try hard to not go over the limit. This year, I was skunked more times than I
brought fish home!!
As a mexican now, I tryly love this country. But until the fishery is closely managed and enforced on the beach, every day again, nothing will ever
slow down the catching, except only when the fish just don't show up again.
Now it is the annual winter winds here blowing hard every day. Only in the early morning, and when it does not blow, do the local fishermen venture
out in their panga type and aluminum boats.
The hotel charter cruisers would like to fish every bit as much in the "off" season, as when they fish during the spring, summer, fall season.
They advertise in newspapers, magazines, cajole editors and pitchmen, cut the prices, etc,, to try and get the public at large to fly in and stay a
few days and relax and FISH. Otherwise their hotel rooms stay empty.
I can understand this. I think most people also can. But being on a fishing cruiser in a "victory at sea" like conditions, after drinking all night
and partying at the bar, then up at 6am to have a scrambled egg breakfast with bacon, and get on a fishing cruiser that heads out into an 8 foot white
capping sea,,,,can only mean puking your guts out 1 hour later over the side of the boat!!
Remember the captain gets paid for the whole day WHEN he leaves the dock.
I have heard many times the day after, when the fisherman tells his tale " of spending 450 dollars to go out on the boat", and would quickly spend a
thousand dollars to get off of it instantly, when he is green and terribly seasick.
Lake Meredith is 60 feet low below the spillway?? Wow, I didn't know it was that deep. I was there for the inauguration year's ago.
Saludos y bueno suerte,,,,,,mc
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
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MrChuck you'd be right
I believe the bulk of the LB buyers are not here for the fishing but for their investment opportunity. Most seem to not even know there is fishing
until they are here. LB keeps them very busy while they're here so there's hardly time for them to fish anyway. We have gotten some business from LB
buyers and a few have become regular clients. Those that really love fishing are looking into buying boats as well and some savvy local folks have
figured out that they can make bank on keeping them properly and securely stored as LB does not have this in place yet.
Reading MrChucks comments of the catching and killing mentality in Eastcape really makes me proud at how far our Loretano captains have come. Yes
there are some that seem to want to kill everything they hook into, but those guys are in the minority. In fact they're actually looked down on by
the responsible captains. Perhaps its the enforcement that goes on here which in comparison to the rest of Mexico, is pretty hard-lined. But I would
like to think that it is from many years of setting a good example and continually putting out a message that we should only take what we'll use and
that we need to leave some stock behind to reproduce. CAtch and release has become so second nature here and pangueros are used to returning with an
empty boat being satisfied with having released their catch instead.
We do also realize that our fishery is in trouble and believe that its not too late to turn things around. I and many others are hoping that the LB
project can get behind us in our local conservation efforts. It is in all of our best interest.
By the way electricity has been out for over 10 hours now. If you're planning on investing down here make sure you have a backup power system and
plenty of water storage. A satellite internet connection and satellite phone couldn't hurt either! 
[Edited on 12-15-2005 by flyfishinPam]
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flyfishinPam
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Depends on who you talk to...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
...very noticeable the Large Decline in the Number of fisherman.
Every time I go North or South 25 to 30 miles I see more Fish and less Fisherman. |
If you mean less tourism fishermen, this is not true. I have seen a steady increase in my own business and I just wrapped up a five year client
review. Our 2006 season is almost fully booked and we're only halfway through December 2005. For me that's record. I have also seen an increase in
the amount of other boats going out in the summer. Of course last summer's fishing was crappy but despite that, there were days where every single
boat that had a tourism permit and would float was booked. I didn't see that in 1997, 98, 99 or even '00 even though '00 was an epic fishing season.
I can only go on ten years records as that's how long I've been working at this.
Also just because you caught four fish on a particular day then did it again a year later doesn't mean much. You need to take an entire year or even
an entire season into consideration to get a better idea of the health of a fishery.
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