flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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Go ahead, Build that wall
President Fox calls it "the wall of shame". He should be ashamed of himself for promoting the exportation of Mexico's best and brightest to help
build the economy of a foreign country. I say build the wall and keep young and bright Mexicans here to help build the Mexican economy. We have
everything we need to build a very economically sound nation right here. 
Mexicans react with anger to U.S. proposal for wall along border
By Mark Stevenson
ASSOCIATED PRESS
1:18 p.m. December 20, 2005
MEXICO CITY ? The Mexican government, angered by a U.S. proposal to extend a wall along the border to keep out migrants, has struck back with radio
ads urging Mexican workers to denounce rights violations in the United States.
Facing a growing tide of anti-immigrant sentiment north of the border, the Mexican government is also hiring an American public relations firm to
improve its image.
Mexican President Vicente Fox denounced the U.S. measures, passed by the House of Representatives on Friday, as shameful and his foreign secretary,
Luis Ernesto Derbez, said Monday the wall was stupid.
It's hard to underestimate the ill-feeling the proposal has generated in Mexico, where editorial pages are dominated by cartoons of Uncle Sam putting
up walls bearing anti-Mexican messages.
Many Mexicans, especially those who have spent time working in the United States, feel the proposal is a slap in the face to those who work hard and
contribute to the U.S. economy.
Fernando Robledo, 42, of the western state of Zacatecas, says the proposals could stem migration and disrupt families by breaking cross-border ties.
"When people heard this, it worried everybody, because this will affect everybody in some way, and their families," Robledo said. "They were
incredulous. How could they do this, propose something like this?"
Robledo, whose son and mother are U.S. citizens, predicted the measure "would unleash conflict within the United States" as small businesses fail for
lack of workers.
He said many Mexicans felt betrayed by the anti-immigrant sentiment.
"We learned to believe in the United States. We have a binational life," he said of Zacatecas, a state that has been sending migrants north for more
than a century. "It isn't just a feeling of rejection. It's against what we see as part of our life, our culture, our territory."
The government is scrambling to fight on two fronts. On Monday, it announced it had hired Allyn & Co., a Dallas-based public relations firm, to
help improve Mexico's image and stem the immigration backlash.
"If people in the U.S. and Canada had an accurate view of the success of democracy, political stability and economic prosperity in Mexico, it would
improve their views on specific bilateral issues like immigration and border security," Rob Allyn, president of the PR firm, told The Associated Press
Tuesday.
Jose Luis Soberanes, head of the government's National Human Rights Commission, suggested Mexico go further.
"I would expect more energetic reactions from our authorities," Soberanes told local media. "It's preferable to have a more demanding government, more
confrontation with the United States."
Mexico has also said it is recruiting U.S. church, community and business groups to oppose the proposal.
And the government has stepped up its defense of migrants, airing a series of radio spots here aimed at migrants returning home for the holidays.
"Had a labor accident in the United State? You have rights. ... Call," reads the ad, sponsored by Mexico's Foreign Relations Department, which has
helped migrants bring compensation suits in the United States.
The sense of dread connected with the measures is hardly restricted to Mexico. Immigrant advocacy and aid groups in the United States are worried
about provisions of the House bill that upgrade unlawful presence in the United States from a civil offense to a felony.
"This is a sad foreshadowing," said immigrants rights activist Kathryn Rodriguez of the Derechos Humanos coalition in Tucson, Ariz. She fears the bill
could expose those who help sick or dying migrants to criminal prosecution.
The House bill, passed on a 239-182 vote, would also enlist military and local law enforcement to help stop illegal entrants and require employers to
verify the legal status of their workers.
Mexicans are outraged by the proposed measures, especially the extension of the border wall, which many liken to the Berlin Wall. Some are urging
their government to fight it fiercely.
"Our president should oppose that wall and make them stop it, at all costs," said Martin Vazquez, 26, at the Mexico City airport as he returned from
his job as a hotel worker in Las Vegas. "More than just insulting, it's terrible."
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bajacaribe
Newbie
Posts: 6
Registered: 12-28-2005
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I have been coming to Tijuana for about 20 years now. This controversial topic is rift with misconceptions and lack of perspective.
How would the people of Tijuana feel if...
1 Million Germans came here to live and work illegally.
1 Million Japanese .... and
1 Million Iranians ... and
1 Million US Citizens
and they all offered to work 'under the table' for less than the Federal Mexican Minimum Wage ?
Everytime I ask Mexicans about this scenario they scream 'We would kill them !! They have no right to come to Mexico illegally and take our jobs away
from Mexicans....
So, why do North Americans hate illegal immigrants ? (of any race or national origin, it matters not to most US Citizens, we had that civil war where
we lost 1/2 of our country's population in a bloody war that split families to insure rights for all, regardless of color of skin).
In our country, we have greater respect and application of the law to protect our rights in the workplace, in the streets and in business. Many other
countries do not use the law to improve the quality of life that US Citizens are accustomed to. When something is not right, most US Citizens will go
after bad bosses, polluters, sexual harrassers and criminals with great zeal and make the law work to protect us all.
Anyone that comes to the US to work without permission is, in the very first instance a criminal because they do not respect our nation's laws from
the moment they step foot on our soil.
Hence, everytime an illegal alien gets into a conflict or breaks a law (traffic accident, etc.) instead of standing up to face the consequences of
their conduct and behavior what do they do ?
They run away because they are afraid of being found out as an illegal. So, if you are driving down the road and get into an accident with illegals,
and you are hurt, they will NOT stop to help you or even call for help for you.
Everytime time an illegal witnesses a crime, they will say "I saw nothing and heard nothing". So, if you are robbed or assaulted and the only
witnesses you have are illegals, you will be denied justice because they will not stand up and speak the truth.
So, the net result of having illegals here is that justice and security and safety are compromised and diminished.
I have seen US Citizens and legally resident aliens stop and help others during an accident even though they have a warrant for their arrest because
they believe (as part of a national civic conscience) that the life of another human being is more important then the temporary loss of one's
liberties.
This is the defining element of what it means to be a responsible member of the community in the United States.
The building of the wall symbolizes that US Citizens and Legal Residents are sick and tired of watching illegal aliens erode the quality of our life
and adversely impact our safety.
I have spoken to women (and men) whose spouses are in the US illegally. They like the money that is sent home (and not spent in US communities where
the money comes from) but they would rather have their loved one home with them, poor, than to be off in another country illegally.
With the new 'transparency policy' in the Mexican Government it is time for Mexicans to come home and fix their own country.
I have met Mexicans in Tijuana that grew up in shacks made of paper and cardboard. They never lost their faith and confidence and pride in their own
country and community. Now, 20 years later, they have a home (paid for) and their spouse, children and a car, but they never abandoned Tijuana or
Mexico. They are very proud of that fact and they have no respect for the 'chickens' that give up so easily on Mexico that 'run away' to the U.S.
They call them traitors because instead of staying in Mexico to fight for what is right and to make changes for the better, they run away and abandon
their communites and families who need them here.
Just as people in any ghetto in any country have the backbone and the will to improve their life wherever they are at, proves that one does not have
to live illegally in another country to 'make it' in this world, whereever you are.
And the illegal aliens in the U.S., how do they fare ? Well, they hate the rules, the regulations the fact that bribes are not common and they can't
buy their way out of taking responsibility for their actions. They are forced to stop living and behaving like children and have to learn to become
adults, to be on time and keep their promises or face real monetary, social or legal consequences for their bad acts. And, because the US has a
longstanding system of uniform laws and personal records on every citizen in every state and territory, one cannot simply run to another state to
avoid prosecution for civil or criminal acts. What a shocker that is to illegals that come from countries where violence, war, bribes and evasion of
the law is the norm.
It is time for all illegals to return to their countries to improve their own people's conditions. Internet and world class knowledge and commerce
are now available in every corner of the globe. There is no excuse for anyone to not to be able to improve their life whereever they are at, in their
own country of origin.
The real enemies that confront us all are ignorance, lack of faith and confidence, corruption and the men in power (like Bush & Co.) that seek to
create more conflict as a distraction. Color of skin or national origin are non-issues. The main issue is respect for the law even when one
personally disagrees with it. That is the foundation of our nation which is being eroded by the influx of illegals that have zero appreciation and
respect for our laws.
The only issue I have against building the wall is environmental concerns for the wetlands.
Anyone that has a bad result from the wall has only themselves and their families to blame for having made a decision in the past to abandon Mexico
and enter the US illegally. They are getting exactly what they deserve. Illegals deserve no privileges and the only rights they should have are the
bare minimums to insure they are dealt with humanely and justly under the law, not given benefits or protections above and beyond the laws.
| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
President Fox calls it "the wall of shame". He should be ashamed of himself for promoting the exportation of Mexico's best and brightest to help
build the economy of a foreign country. I say build the wall and keep young and bright Mexicans here to help build the Mexican economy. We have
everything we need to build a very economically sound nation right here.
Mexicans react with anger to U.S. proposal for wall along border
By Mark Stevenson
ASSOCIATED PRESS
1:18 p.m. December 20, 2005
MEXICO CITY ? The Mexican government, angered by a U.S. proposal to extend a wall along the border to keep out migrants, has struck back with radio
ads urging Mexican workers to denounce rights violations in the United States.
Facing a growing tide of anti-immigrant sentiment north of the border, the Mexican government is also hiring an American public relations firm to
improve its image.
Mexican President Vicente Fox denounced the U.S. measures, passed by the House of Representatives on Friday, as shameful and his foreign secretary,
Luis Ernesto Derbez, said Monday the wall was stupid.
It's hard to underestimate the ill-feeling the proposal has generated in Mexico, where editorial pages are dominated by cartoons of Uncle Sam putting
up walls bearing anti-Mexican messages.
Many Mexicans, especially those who have spent time working in the United States, feel the proposal is a slap in the face to those who work hard and
contribute to the U.S. economy.
Fernando Robledo, 42, of the western state of Zacatecas, says the proposals could stem migration and disrupt families by breaking cross-border ties.
"When people heard this, it worried everybody, because this will affect everybody in some way, and their families," Robledo said. "They were
incredulous. How could they do this, propose something like this?"
Robledo, whose son and mother are U.S. citizens, predicted the measure "would unleash conflict within the United States" as small businesses fail for
lack of workers.
He said many Mexicans felt betrayed by the anti-immigrant sentiment.
"We learned to believe in the United States. We have a binational life," he said of Zacatecas, a state that has been sending migrants north for more
than a century. "It isn't just a feeling of rejection. It's against what we see as part of our life, our culture, our territory."
The government is scrambling to fight on two fronts. On Monday, it announced it had hired Allyn & Co., a Dallas-based public relations firm, to
help improve Mexico's image and stem the immigration backlash.
"If people in the U.S. and Canada had an accurate view of the success of democracy, political stability and economic prosperity in Mexico, it would
improve their views on specific bilateral issues like immigration and border security," Rob Allyn, president of the PR firm, told The Associated Press
Tuesday.
Jose Luis Soberanes, head of the government's National Human Rights Commission, suggested Mexico go further.
"I would expect more energetic reactions from our authorities," Soberanes told local media. "It's preferable to have a more demanding government, more
confrontation with the United States."
Mexico has also said it is recruiting U.S. church, community and business groups to oppose the proposal.
And the government has stepped up its defense of migrants, airing a series of radio spots here aimed at migrants returning home for the holidays.
"Had a labor accident in the United State? You have rights. ... Call," reads the ad, sponsored by Mexico's Foreign Relations Department, which has
helped migrants bring compensation suits in the United States.
The sense of dread connected with the measures is hardly restricted to Mexico. Immigrant advocacy and aid groups in the United States are worried
about provisions of the House bill that upgrade unlawful presence in the United States from a civil offense to a felony.
"This is a sad foreshadowing," said immigrants rights activist Kathryn Rodriguez of the Derechos Humanos coalition in Tucson, Ariz. She fears the bill
could expose those who help sick or dying migrants to criminal prosecution.
The House bill, passed on a 239-182 vote, would also enlist military and local law enforcement to help stop illegal entrants and require employers to
verify the legal status of their workers.
Mexicans are outraged by the proposed measures, especially the extension of the border wall, which many liken to the Berlin Wall. Some are urging
their government to fight it fiercely.
"Our president should oppose that wall and make them stop it, at all costs," said Martin Vazquez, 26, at the Mexico City airport as he returned from
his job as a hotel worker in Las Vegas. "More than just insulting, it's terrible." |
Cheers!
bajacaribe
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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Right on bajacaribe
I am in agreement with everything you've said. Especially with the new transparency laws in place its time for Mexicans to stay home and build up
their own country. As a US citizen who came to Mexico legally, I am in agreement with the restrictions here. When I lived in the US I had grown
tired of illegals getting away with what they did. I was in the restaurant business and there were more illegals working in many of the places than
US citizens. Also when I first attended the California State University system in 1990 as an out of state resident (from Connecticut) I had to first
become a resident of California as I couldn't afford the out of state tuition...but guess what? illegal aliens could attend CSU for FREE!!! 
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Caibe;
I read your Post and was very much impressed by your ability and words with one exception
Your paragraph blaming Geo. Bush and company, that alerted to me that you were using the blame Game, I fel bad that you had to screw up a good Post
with just One remark.
The Mexican People are the only ones who can make the changes in their Life in Mexico.
I am not so sure that you are correct about Race/Color in the States. There is lots of Discrimination still toward the Blacks and especially fro the
Blacks toward the Mexicanos- The reason being is that now days the mexicanos are taking over as the largest Minority and are getting more of the
Federal Money.
I do not beleive for one minute that there are people that will work to fill the Jobs if the illegals were stopped from working. There are many
younsters that would rather go to the malls than take the jobs necessary .
How do you teach a mexican child to be responsible for his own Acts, when he is being taught that he can go to the States, Work and not go Hungry.
I know several People from Loreto that went North, had good jobs, and came back because of missing their Families? Culture.
I do not know the answer, but I do not blame the President of the United States/Mexico . Blame does nothing but make the Blamer feel better. the
Mexicano is going to have to develop Pride in Himself and his country. The Politians have Failed, The Catholic church Has Failed.
Were do we go from Here?????
Skeet/Loreto
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
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Good points Caribe
I like the concern for patriotism and all but I take exception on a few issues. Skeet is right about whos' to blame. If you did yer homework you
would soon learn all about how California and the policy that bagan with ag pickers over 40 yrs ago set the stage.
It wasn't such a bad idea except when the state turned a blind eye to enforcing the program it opened the floodgates. Nobody said chite. What a
shame. I know some very "patriotic" Chicanos who, through hard work, assimilation, education and legitimacy became pillars of their community with
more appreciation for this country than most young Americans I have met.
Furthermore, Californias' HUGE economy although f_cked up by politicians lately has a bigger gross national product than most countries including
Mexico. Gee, I wonder how that happened? Californias' agriculture is considered to be the breadbasket of America. Get the picture?
Some call it explotation. I have mixed feelings. I think EVERYONE should be in this country legally tho. They should also learn the language To bad
our wonderful politicians couldn't seriously address this problem 25 yrs ago.
Sending em all home? Gimme a break. Build a wall,? Gimme a break. Did you ever notice
how many products or instruction sheets are printed in both English & Spanish? My guess is that it's audience(s) are 90% illegal consumers. What
say you?
Look how lucky we are to not be neighbors with China.
THere is plenty of discrimination around . It is so pathetic that since this big push to control the border all these freakin' vigilante types are
having an orgasm just at the thought of a capture.
Mexicans are not our enemies. Some of these people think they are. Do you make that equation also? How far do you go? How do you sort em all out?
Set up and knock em down. Hmmmm, not very American methinks.Realize this:
How would you feel if a MILLION rich (legal)Americans moved into your Baja neighborhood and your Mexican family lived there for a hundred years or so?
No allegre! Why? Because Mexicans surely don't want to be crowded out by gringos. The politicos on the other hand could care less.
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bajalou
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4459
Registered: 3-11-2004
Location: South of the broder
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Look how lucky we are to not be neighbors with China.
. |
150 years ago US passed laws prohibiting Chineese from Entry.
100 yhears ago Baja had laws prohibiting chineese.
??
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Full Time Residents
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You know how much stuff we own that's made in China?
They better never get mad at us...
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Gypsy Jan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4275
Registered: 1-27-2004
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Mood: Depends on which way the wind is blowing
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Asian-American perspective
If you want to know about the insider asian perspective, i.e., how the Korean immigrants feel about America and how they feel about China, go to: http://thedeliciouslife.blogspot.com/2005/08/anchorman-who-c...
Well written and insightful.
Cheers to all, here's to the New Year!
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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bajacaribe,
I give you my respect to you words. The best your heart feels!
More then I would have felt or thought on the subject. You are a patriot to your beloved Mexico. God Bless Mexico, God bless USA, and God bless
America.
Al G
[Edited on 12-31-2005 by Al G]
[Edited on 12-31-2005 by Al G]
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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movinguy
Nomad
Posts: 257
Registered: 3-19-2004
Location: Chula Vista, CA and Tijuana, MX
Member Is Offline
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Borders, language and culture
There is a conservative talk radio guy named Michael Savage who says that societies are built on these 3 pillars. Now, don't get me wrong - I think
the guy went AWOL mentally a while ago. But on this point, I think he's right.
[Edited on 12-31-2005 by movinguy]
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Don't worry Virginia, there won't be a wall
The U.S. wants the labor and:
Mexico doesn't want a revolution
| Quote: | Originally posted by bajacaribe
How would the people of Tijuana feel if...
1 Million Germans came here to live and work illegally.
1 Million Japanese .... and
1 Million Iranians ... and
1 Million US Citizens
and they all offered to work 'under the table' for less than the Federal Mexican Minimum Wage ?
Everytime I ask Mexicans about this scenario they scream 'We would kill them !! They have no right to come to Mexico illegally and take our jobs away
from Mexicans....
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Think that only happens with illegal labor in the States?
Perhaps you should also ask Tijuana's employers, who routinely exploit their own countrymen, if they feel the least bit guilty about it.
"Under the table", legal/illegal, fences, walls; all are smokescreens. The issue is JOBS. There ain't none in Mexico. People, just like the birdies,
migrate to where the food is. Most Mexicans don't come to the U.S. in search of a job, they come to get one...A subtle, but important difference.
| Quote: | Originally posted by bajacaribe
And the illegal aliens in the U.S., how do they fare ? Well, they hate the rules, the regulations the fact that bribes are not common and they can't
buy their way out of taking responsibility for their actions. They are forced to stop living and behaving like children and have to learn to become
adults, to be on time and keep their promises or face real monetary, social or legal consequences for their bad acts. And, because the US has a
longstanding system of uniform laws and personal records on every citizen in every state and territory, one cannot simply run to another state to
avoid prosecution for civil or criminal acts. What a shocker that is to illegals that come from countries where violence, war, bribes and evasion of
the law is the norm.
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Do you ever raise this issue with your "friends" in TJ?
I believe the key to Mexico's political and economic future is in addressing personal and professional deportment. My experience here tells me it's
possible. As a country, 2000 showed me that they know the way. Next year's elections will show if they still have the will.
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yosemitejim
Newbie
Posts: 11
Registered: 9-19-2003
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Cheers, I must respond to some of the misinformation regarding illegal and legal immigration. I am going to respond to assertions but have no
interest in flammming.
If "American Indians" (our term, not theirs) had built a fence that prevented the European settlers from illegally immigrating to the US we wouldn't
be having this conversation. Additionally, most of the territorial land of the US was at some time in our history, part of Spain and subsequently
Mexico. Check out the place names on our maps.
American business leaders (particularly in agriculture and apparrel) have strongly encouraged illegal immigration from Mexico to counter labor unions
and take the jobs that our pampered citizens will not do. Now, there are NO sanctions for employers employing illegal aliens. Meat packers,
agriculture, and low end exploitative retailers love illegal immigrants.
According to CSU Sacramento, California Universities have NEVER waived tuition for illegal aliens. Now, they are detained and sent to INS if they
apply for any public services except for health care (a public health issue if you think about it). As a teacher, I am required to report illegals in
my classroom. All this enacted by a governor who illegally immigrated from Austria. If a student tells me that he was savagely beaten by his illegal
immigrant father, my first priority is to report the illegal immigrant not the abuse.
Illegals run from officials because INS and local detention facilities are frought with violence against these people because they have absolutely NO
rights. According to the Pew research center, almost 60% of all illegal immigrants detained in the US have suffered some form of physical violence.
Have you ever heard of a DA prosecuting abuse against an illegal immigrant in jail? Never! Finally, Mexicans run away from accidents and problems in
Mexico as well as the US because their legal system is Napoleonic, that is "guilty until proven innocent".
Savage's 3 pillars of culture do not jive with our own Country's actions. We have over 1,300 military bases in foreign countries, insist that English
be the world's dominant language, and resist mightily when a country does not want our culture and takes actions to protect their own culture (think
France). If we will not respect the "three pillars", why should other cultures? Maybe we should pull back from our military bases, embassies, and
occupations.
Thank you all for your opinions and consideration of mine.
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
Member Is Offline
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YJ, well said.
"Until you have walked in my shoes"
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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Sure would be nice if the "Off-Topic" Forum could have a discussion of this type.!!
I know that some of the employers used Mexicano Labor aganist the Unions, however it was a very small amount as most unions did not want to get mixed
up with the type of Labor involved.
Ceasar Chavez- did the most good in Calif.
I have a friend who owns a Dairy and uses Illegals for Milkers-$2,000 a month,medical Help, Housing and a Beef a month for food.
My Friend in Baja makes about 10,000 a year as a pangaero
The President of Mexico knows that if the Borfer is closed there will be a Revolution in short Order.
Mexico must change from within Not from Without.
Skeet/Loreto
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