Oso
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Another personals ad
HOMBRE INVISIBLE
BUSCA
MUJER TRANSPARENTE
PARA HACER COSAS
NUNCA VISTAS
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Bruce R Leech
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good one Oso
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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Gypsy Jan
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Hi, Oso
You have probably been asked this before, but, would you please translate your signature?
A mi me gusta mucho la lengua espanol, pero, I can't conjugate worth s***
[Edited on 4-14-2006 by Gypsy Jan]
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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Oso
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Well, like a lot of idiomatic things, it never comes across in translation with exactly the same "flavor"... "Lidiar", is sort of what the Matador
does with the bull during the first part of the faena, but here's sort of close:
Lord, send me sorrow and pain
Send me aged evils
But to have to put up with f***ing idiots
Don't send me that, Lord
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Gypsy Jan
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Thanks Oso
Now, why do Mexicans say "Mande?" when they don't hear the question?
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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Oso
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Although Lencho's response is essentially correct, I was sufficiently intrigued by the questiion to refer it to my good friend Arturo Moran. Here is
his response and I'm outtta here for the momenrt as the vicodin is starting to kick in.
Qu? gusto recibir tu correo. De lo que me preguntas puedo decirte lo siguiente:
Si nos vamos al lat?n, ah? existi? la palabra "mandator", que se deriva de "manus" (manos). La idea impl?cita es "el que tiene el control en la mano".
De ah? se deriv? el verbo "mandare" (mandar) con el significado de "dar ?rdenes", fue despu?s que tambi?n pas? a significar "enviar".
En M?xico, durante la ?poca colonial, las castas (ind?genas, mestizos, mulatos, etc), por su condici?n de inferiores en aquella sociedad, cuando le
hablaban, usaban la formula de respeto (?o sumisi?n?) "M?nde vuestra merced", o sea que se pon?a a modo para cumplir las ?rdenes del gachup?n que le
hab?a hablado.
Esta f?rmula de "respeto" se mantuvo y se extendi? para dirigirse a otras figuras de respeto (sacerdotes, pap?s, abuelos, viejos, etc.). Luego se
convirti? en una f?rmula de "buena educaci?n" y se redujo a su forma actual "mande" o "mande usted".
De tanto acostumbrarnos a decir "mande" cuando nos hablan, el uso se extendi? para decirlo en forma de pregunta cuando no entendemos ni madre:
"?mande?"
Bueno, recibe saludos y espero que t? y tu familia est?n bien .
Arturo Ortega Mor
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Gypsy Jan
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Arturo, mucho gusto
for that scholarly response. I think I get the gist, but I am going to chew over the fine details for a while.
Oso, I appreciate you efforts to enlighten a gringa.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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Roberto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Oso
Although Lencho's response is essentially correct, I was sufficiently intrigued by the questiion to refer it to my good friend Arturo Moran. Here is
his response and I'm outtta here for the momenrt as the vicodin is starting to kick in.
Qu? gusto recibir tu correo. De lo que me preguntas puedo decirte lo siguiente:
Si nos vamos al lat?n, ah? existi? la palabra "mandator", que se deriva de "manus" (manos). La idea impl?cita es "el que tiene el control en la mano".
De ah? se deriv? el verbo "mandare" (mandar) con el significado de "dar ?rdenes", fue despu?s que tambi?n pas? a significar "enviar".
En M?xico, durante la ?poca colonial, las castas (ind?genas, mestizos, mulatos, etc), por su condici?n de inferiores en aquella sociedad, cuando le
hablaban, usaban la formula de respeto (?o sumisi?n?) "M?nde vuestra merced", o sea que se pon?a a modo para cumplir las ?rdenes del gachup?n que le
hab?a hablado.
Esta f?rmula de "respeto" se mantuvo y se extendi? para dirigirse a otras figuras de respeto (sacerdotes, pap?s, abuelos, viejos, etc.). Luego se
convirti? en una f?rmula de "buena educaci?n" y se redujo a su forma actual "mande" o "mande usted".
De tanto acostumbrarnos a decir "mande" cuando nos hablan, el uso se extendi? para decirlo en forma de pregunta cuando no entendemos ni madre:
"?mande?"
Bueno, recibe saludos y espero que t? y tu familia est?n bien .
Arturo Ortega Mor?n |
Wow! Not surprised having read the book, but that's quite an answer. I especially enjoyed: "cuando no entendemos ni madre: "?mande?""
And here I always thought that "mande" was short for "comande", as in give me your order, and Don Arturo seems to hint at something similar with the
latin reference. Anything to this?
[Edited on 4-28-2006 by Roberto]
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Oso
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
And here I always thought that "mande" was short for "comande", as in give me your order, and Don Arturo seems to hint at something similar with the
latin reference. Anything to this?
[Edited on 4-28-2006 by Roberto] |
Yes, that aspect is exactly what he was getting at with the subservient nature of "Mande Vuestra Merced".
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Roberto
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Of course -- I should have read that more carefully. Tell me again about gachupin?
As only a limited speaker of the idiom, my impression is nonetheless that Don Arturo speaks with an elegance and command of the language that makes
everything flow in a most poetic way. He must be quite a guy.
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Oso
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Roberto, your memory is getting as bad as mine. We did Gringo, Gabacho and Gachupin two years ago on Thaaaaaaat board:
http://www.baja.net/fud/index.php?t=msg&th=4649&star...
Pity there was so little interest (besides you and Bratwurst) that the forum died. Maybe it can be revived here, but I don't really want to be a
moderator anymore. Too much like an obligation.
I've only communicated with Arturo by email, so I don't know what he sounds like, although I suspect you're right. He invited us to his daughter's
Quincea?era in Monterrey. Wish we'd gone but it wasn't in the cards. Someday I hope to meet him, it's not that far from the wife's family in
Ixmiquilpan.
BTW, a parody of the soap "El Derecho de Amar" is called "El Derecho de Mandar" and lampoons Fox, Martita, AMLO etc. etc.
"To command" is "mandar", which also means "to govern" (think "mandate"- same Latin root). I've never heard "comandar" as a verb. But, there's the
title "Comandante', so the prefix probably has other uses.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
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Use of "Don"
Roberto, while I have your attention...
AMC ran the Godfather trilogy over and over again last weekend and I kept hearing "Don Corleone" as well as "Don Tomassino" (sp?)
In Mexico, Brando's character would have been addressed directly as "Don Vito" or referred to in the third person as "Don Vito Corleone", but
absolutely NEVER as "Don Corleone". I don't know the wherefore of the rule if there is one, but the honorific is used with the first name or the
full name but not with the surname alone. It just isn't done. Is it different in Italy, or only in Hollywood?
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Roberto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Oso
Roberto, while I have your attention...
AMC ran the Godfather trilogy over and over again last weekend and I kept hearing "Don Corleone" as well as "Don Tomassino" (sp?)
In Mexico, Brando's character would have been addressed directly as "Don Vito" or referred to in the third person as "Don Vito Corleone", but
absolutely NEVER as "Don Corleone". I don't know the wherefore of the rule if there is one, but the honorific is used with the first name or the
full name but not with the surname alone. It just isn't done. Is it different in Italy, or only in Hollywood? |
Yes, I know that in Mexico, the "don" is used with the first name, not the apellido, but in Italy it's different, in more ways than one.
First of all, Don, is really a remnant of the days of landownders, nobility and indentured servitude. So, at least originally, it was a sign of wealth
as much (and perhaps more) than anything. It has grown to be a sign of respect as well, and a lot more informal than once was, and in those cases it
can sometimes be used with the first name. But keep in mind that this is really something you would encounter in the rural areas of Italy, especially
so in the southern parts of the country, where some would say things have not changed much. So, Don Vito could have been used, but by people with more
than a passing acquantance with him - basically, his close friends. People outside that circle would use the last name, much as in Mexico a stranger
would never be adressed with the familiar "tu", but "usted" (tu/lei in Italian).
That's pretty much the way it works. There are exceptions, but there it is.
By the way, even though it IS a Hollywood film, Coppola has done an extremely credible job in documenting that culture - I am referring to the culture
of Italians who have emigrated abroad, a culture that is somewhat different than what you will find in Italy, as things froze in that world at the
time the people emigrated.
Saludos.
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bajalera
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"Mande" can really be helpful to people who never use the possessive"my" Spanish because theirs is so bad they don't care to claim it as their own.
F'r instance, when a Spanish-speaker says something I don't understand, I can say "Mande?" and this gives me some time to think over and try to figure
out what was said.
When I answer, the person I'm talking with can say say "Mande?" while trying to figure out what I'm trying to get across.
Mande is handy! Only thing is, you can spend 10 minutes trying to find out where the restroom is.
And this thread [exception for this post] has certainly been interesting and informative. Add my vote to those who hope ir lasts awhile.
\"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest never happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.\" -
Mark Twain
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