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amir
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TO COMPACT BY MACHINE OR TO TAMP BY HAND?
We are at the stage of filling with dirt the inside of lthe footings and foundation of our home. In places it is about 65 centimeters above ground.
Originally we were told that it will be compacted by machine.
Now they are doing it but they are using a tamper. The builder says "I've done it like this many times."
Shoud we insist on using a machine for compacting?
We are not on loose soil or sand, but we wonder.
Any input or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
[Edited on 1-10-2008 by amir]
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DENNIS
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Amir....
What is it that you're calling a tamper?
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Russ
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I believe that a machine is better but either way it would be best the compact only a few inches at a time and damp soil would be better. Best of luck
with your new building.... and contractor. Other than dealing with PROFEPA building was the most frustrating thing I've done down here.
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amir
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Amir....
What is it that you're calling a tamper? |
Dennis,
The tamper is a block of iron about 10x10 inches square and maybe 1/2 inch thick or so with a wooden handle. They are filling in layers of dirt that
appears to be damp, and then they tamp with this tool.
I offered the whole crew free adjustments while they work here, and they joked that doing the compacting by hand this way, they would get more
adjustments. The youngest son joked that the father (el jefe) wants them all to get strong. And indeed they are using a lot of muscle power to do this
work.
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longlegsinlapaz
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Russ is right...it appears to me that your builder's cutting corners & increasing his profit by tamping rather than renting a compacting machine.
For that depth, you can get a 90-95% compaction rate if you make him stick to his original commitment of using the machine. He probably included the
rental cost of the machine in your bid since he told you that's how it'd be done originally.
Even with the machine, make sure they only compact 2-3 inches at a time & keep each layer wet as they work. The machine is a lot heavier, it
compacts with more force than the tamper, and it is more consistent since it doesn't get tired!
Russ is also totally correct re PROFECO!
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amir
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| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
Russ is right...it appears to me that your builder's cutting corners & increasing his profit by tamping rather than renting a compacting machine.
For that depth, you can get a 90-95% compaction rate if you make him stick to his original commitment of using the machine. He probably included the
rental cost of the machine in your bid since he told you that's how it'd be done originally.
Even with the machine, make sure they only compact 2-3 inches at a time & keep each layer wet as they work. The machine is a lot heavier, it
compacts with more force than the tamper, and it is more consistent since it doesn't get tired!
Russ is also totally correct re PROFECO! |
longlegs,
The compacting was NOT included in the original bid. Originally the footings were going to be buried deeper, but because of a small arroyo, we decided
to build the foundation higher. I understood that this modification will require several truckloads of fill dirt and labor in compacting it. This
family (from La Paz) is totally honest and I will be charged only for what they do. I am not worried that they are trying to cheat us; we just don't
want problems with the floor later... What I will tell him tomorrow when they resume, is that the dirt should be wetted between the layers they are
compacting by hand; the dirt is damp, but they have not been adding water.
He also said that they will use a "malla" when they pour the floor, and that will keep the floor from buckling and cracking.
Are there different sizes and strengths of malla?
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DENNIS
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Amir...
Damp is good but, don't insist on Wet. They can't be doing this in the mud. Is there an equipment rental in your area? Have them get the proper
tool. Compaction is important. How many square feet are involved?
I know what a tamp is...just didn't know if we were on the same page. You'll have cracks in your concrete if it's not on a firm foundation and
tamping is better than nothing. Just don't let them get away with doing nothing.
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Al G
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LLL is correct there is no way to compact 65 CM (over 2 feet) by hand without major settlement later...
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
Even with the machine, make sure they only compact 2-3 inches at a time |
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longlegsinlapaz
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I stand corrected on you're builder's potential motives! But I stick by my experience of compacted soil versus tamped. Tamping is okay for really
shallow areas, but under your casa & outside the foundations, I'd opt for the compacting machine...if it's compacted 90-95% and you use malla
there is no reason the soil under the casa should "buckle & crack". Yes, there are several different grades of malla...different gauges & the
heavier the gauge typically the larger the grid. Different sizes for different applications. I'd also recommend, if he's not already doing it, that
they fumigate for termites several times in the fill & compaction process, and definitely the surface area before they pour the footings,
foundation & floors.
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Al G
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malla...is that slab wire cloth that must be used anyway even with compaction grade fill.
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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BAJACAT
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Man or Machine
Amir if you can rent A Wacker, from any local company,it will be better.With the Wacker they can do six inch lifts,and get better compacction off
course with good moisture in the filling material.By hand the lifts are going to be smaller,maybe two inches, but the force of the Tamper will vary
with the different people that will be helping, this system works if you do it right.Ither way, when their done drive a metal stake with a slegde
hammer in the ground.,with 90 or 95 % compacction it will be hard to drive it in, if it's to soft the metal stake will go in with easse , and it will
required more work, unless you can hire somebody with a Gauge and have a proper test done..
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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amir
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Thank you all, so far, for your input. We'll be mulling this over overnight. I hope I can get some sleep. I'll have to face the builder early in the
morning with an answer, as it all is going very fast...
longlegs: about the fumigation, this subject was never discussed. My question is, how long are the chemicals active? Even if it was thoroughly
fumigated as you recommend, what would keep termite infestations from appearing later, say 2 years, or 5 years, or whatever the life of the chemicals
was?
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longlegsinlapaz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
malla...is that slab wire cloth that must be used anyway even with compaction grade fill. |
Not sure what you're referring to. Never seen anything like that here, there is nothing but dirt or tierra colorado used locally....depending on the
depth of the fill/compaction, typically held in place with retaining walls. No cloth involved. Locally, they even call chicken wire malla....albeit
the lightest grade! It's simply a grid of heavy gauge wire that helps prevent the cement from settling or getting major cracks. It starts out at the
bottom of a pour area, but they use a metal hook to lift it so it's closer to the mid-depth when the cement hardens.
I have lots of pics, but don't have a reduction program to post them!
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amir
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longlegs, you are a wealth of information! Thank you.
What chemical, brand, do you specifically recommend for the fumigation, and where is this available in La Paz?
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longlegsinlapaz
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Amir, they most likely WILL appear later, that's the nature of the tenacious termites here! But they do sell a product that's guaranteed for 7 (maybe
8...I forgot!) years. If you kill the total existing population in the soil, it reduces the future generations from being born in "the old
neighborhood"! It seems to have a longer lasting effect in the soil to keep them from coming in through cement that it does where wood is
involved....in my personal experience. Spray your foundations & a swath of soil all the way around your casa every few years to help minimize
re-infestations.
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Mango
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The machine will be best to compact the soil; especially if it is a two story house since each footing will have to bear more weight than a one story
home.
Either way, the house won't fall down because of non compacted soil. You will just develop cracks in the foundation/walls and tiles due to settlement
down the road. Cracks don't look pretty but they are not dangerous in most cases.
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longlegsinlapaz
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I'm cheating.....I cut 'n pasted this from a U2U I sent someone else recently...
What I currently have on hand is a product called "TermiDel 48". In my experience, all of the termite products you can get at places who specialize in
exterminator-type products works well.
There are several places in La Paz...I'm sorry, but I can't remember exactly WHERE the place in town I got it is!! My most recent purchase was from a
place in Chametla a block off the airport road...5-6 blocks off the hwy (Sorry!! There aren't an overabundance of street signs in Chametla! )
If you can find exactly where they're coming through the concrete, get a needle (like for insulin injections @ any farmacia) and inject the stuff as
deep into the hole as possible. When I put it inside the walls, I don't dilute it. If I paint it on wood, I do dilute it. You can also dilute it &
spray it on outside foundations & a swath around the outside of the house. I spray the tunnels inside to kill anything inside & let them dry
before I clean the tunnels off the wall/floor. This stuff is really potent & smells obnoxious...be careful to keep animals away from it until it
dries & don't use in an enclosed area if you have birds!
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capt. mike
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the largest const defect litigation suits and ins claims on record in the most litigous state in the union.........California....one in Santa Monica
which also involved the largest bond failure ever at $40 million - were all about soils subsidence.
as a builder and developer who rapes the land and desert regularly.......let me tell youn where NOT to cut corners.......compaction. Especially under
any supportive foundations. and don't forget problems associated with expansive soils conditions. If you have any clayey materials native or imported
watch out for drainage in proximity to concrete!!!
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by amir
Shoud we insist on using a machine for compacting?
[Edited on 1-10-2008 by amir] |
Hand-compacting is common in Mexico (and common in any country where equipment is rare and labor is cheap), and works fine if done correctly. You
could ask the contractor to certify the soil compaction is >95 density (and absent expansive soil) via soil testing. Maybe ask your engineer or
architect to observe and test/certify your contractor's soil prep work. If you insist on the contractor using a mechanical compactor, you may be
asking your contractor to get on the job training using equipment they are unfamiliar with.
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