| Pages:
1
2 |
thebajarunner
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3718
Registered: 9-8-2003
Location: Arizona....."Free at last from crumbling Cali
Member Is Offline
Mood: muy amable
|
|
Gringo guns for TJ- how sick is this???
MEXICO UNDER SIEGE
U.S. guns arm Mexican drug cartels
Licensed weapons dealers are abundant near the border. 'Straw buyers' assist the traffickers.
By Richard A. Serrano
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
August 10, 2008
SIERRA VISTA, ARIZ. — High-powered automatic weapons and ammunition are flowing virtually unchecked from border states into Mexico, fueling a war
among drug traffickers, the army and police that has left thousands dead, according to U.S. and Mexican officials.
The munitions are hidden under trucks and stashed in the trunks of cars, or concealed under the clothing of people who brazenly walk across the
international bridges. They are showing up in seizures and in the aftermath of shootouts between the cartels and police in Mexico.
More than 90% of guns seized at the border or after raids and shootings in Mexico have been traced to the United States, according to the U.S. Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Last year, 2,455 weapons traces requested by Mexico showed that guns had been purchased in the United
States, according to the ATF. Texas, Arizona and California accounted for 1,805 of those traced weapons.
No one is sure how many U.S.-purchased guns have made their way into Mexico, but U.S. authorities estimate the number in the thousands.
The body count, meanwhile, is rising. Since a military-led crackdown on narcotics traffickers began 18 months ago, more than 4,000 people in Mexico
have died in drug-related violence, including 450 police officers, soldiers and prosecutors, as well as innocent bystanders, cartel members and
corrupt officials, according to Mexican authorities.
Tom Mangan, a senior ATF special agent in Arizona, compared the flow to reverse osmosis. "Just like the drugs that head north," firearms move south,
he said. "The cartels are outfitting an army."
More than 6,700 licensed gun dealers have set up shop within a short drive of the 2,000-mile border, from the Gulf Coast of Texas to San Diego --
which amounts to more than three dealers for every mile of border territory. Law enforcement has come to call the region an "iron river of guns."
And while U.S. political leaders and presidential candidates have focused rhetoric, money and time on stemming the northward flow of drugs and illegal
immigrants, far less has been said and done about arms flowing south, largely from states with liberal gun laws, into a nation where only police and
the military can legally own a firearm.
Mexican authorities have been pressing the United States to do more to help a border force they describe as overwhelmed and often intimidated.
"Just guarantee me that arms won't enter Mexico," Mexico's public-safety chief, Genaro Garcia Luna, told a radio interviewer recently. Stop the flow
of guns from the United States, he said, "and the gasoline for the crimes that we have will run out."
'Straw buyers'
Both sides blame "straw buyers" who purchase weapons for traffickers at small gun shops and large gun shows.
Adan Rodriguez, 35, a struggling carpet-layer from the Dallas area, told gun dealers he was a private security officer and bought more than 100
assault rifles, 9-mm handguns and other high-powered weapons at multiple shops over several months, according to court records.
But authorities say drug traffickers were giving him stacks of cash to buy the guns, with marijuana laced in between the bills. He earned $30 to $40 a
gun, according to court records.
"The temptation got over me," Rodriguez told a federal judge in Dallas, who sentenced him in 2006 to 5 1/2 years in prison.
Last August, U.S. Customs and Border Patrol agents in Roma, Texas, came upon a 1999 Freightliner tractor-trailer with a hidden stash of weapons,
including a rifle, four shotguns, a handgun and 8,024 rounds of live ammunition with 10 magazines. The driver was questioned, and that investigation
continues.
In February, five men, including a father and his two sons, were arrested just outside Roma and charged with selling as many as 60 guns, silencers and
other weapons. The serial numbers on some of the weapons were shaved off, government evidence shows -- a sign to agents that the firearms were
destined for Mexican gangs.
More recently, the ATF seized 13 AK-47 rifles Aug. 1 from an alleged straw purchaser in Phoenix, according to Mangan. The guns were to be delivered to
the Tijuana cartel via Southern California, Mangan said.
Despite the arrests, smugglers appear to have the upper hand, U.S. and Mexican law enforcement sources say. Just 100 U.S. firearms agents and 35
inspectors patrol the vast border region for gun smugglers, compared with 16,000 Border Patrol agents, most of them working the Southwest border.
Elias Bazan, a supervisory agent with the ATF in Laredo, Texas, has a staff of just six agents at one of the grittiest stretches along the Rio Grande.
"I don't have an analyst," he said. "I don't have an administrative assistant. I don't have an inspector. One major case can soak up my entire office.
And we have major cases all the time."
Gun dealers also far outnumber agents. Here in tiny Sierra Vista, on a rise high enough to afford a view into Mexico, half a dozen dealers operate in
stores along the town's main thoroughfare, and they also sell and trade arms out of their homes.
Arizona is a wide-open state for gun lovers: A license lets you carry a gun openly on the street or concealed.
Saguaro Firearms is a small, crowded shop on East Fry Boulevard, a strip of fast-food restaurants and mini-malls. Across the street is Guns &
Gear. Anyone with proper ID and a brief background check can leave with a firearm under his or her belt and reach Mexico in minutes.
The manager at Saguaro Firearms, who gave his name only as Greg, carries a "comfortable to shoot" silver Kahr P40 in a black holster on his right hip.
"I don't believe all the hype" about all the guns getting into Mexico, he said, knifing open new boxes of ammunition.
He said that toll bridges, a fence and more border cops would not stop immigrants from flowing north or guns from flowing south. "Build a tower with
an armed guard every 100 yards," he suggested. "Maybe then."
Washington and Mexico City are pledging cooperation to halt the weapons flow, but each capital wants more from the other. Washington is urging Mexican
officials to be more vigilant at the border, and to thoroughly inspect and arrest crossers who carry weapons from the United States. Warning signs
have been posted at the border, but few people pay heed.
William Hoover, the ATF's assistant director for field operations, told Congress that his agency is working with Mexican law enforcement officials on
an "eTrace" system to track guns found in Mexico. The process allows the United States to start criminal investigations against anyone in the country
who has sent a weapon to Mexico.
Mexico wants the United States to tighten gun laws in border states. They also want more checks on "straw man" purchasers like Rodriguez.
Key arrests
Since weapons began heading south in bulk three to five years ago, U.S. agents have made some key arrests. Unfortunately, many of them came after the
weapons had been used in cartel warfare in Mexico.
This spring the ATF arrested a dealer and two others from the X-Caliber Guns store in Phoenix, which allegedly dispatched hundreds of AK-47s and other
long guns and pistols to Mexico. The shop has since shut down; the three have pleaded not guilty.
ATF intelligence has shown that some of the firearms sold from X-Caliber were used by cartel gunmen against Mexican police and the Mexican army.
Six guns were traced to alleged members of the Sinaloa Cartel, who were rounded up shortly after Mexican police captured alleged drug lord Joaquin
"Shorty" Guzman in May. An assault rifle traced to X-Caliber also turned up in a cache found after eight federal policemen were killed and three
others wounded in a gun battle in Culiacan, according to the ATF.
Gun shows have become particularly troublesome. There, traffickers have their pick of weapons: AK-47s, AR-15s and the FN 5.57-caliber pistol known as
"asesino de policia," or "cop killer."
"You see the Sinaloan cowboys come in," said Mangan, who browses the shows. "You see them with their ammunition belts and their ammunition boots. You
can see the dollies being rolled outside to their cars.
"Why do they need the high-powered guns? Because the Mexican military is armed too, and they need to pierce that armor."
Sometimes it's the ammunition that tips agents off. In November 2006, an agent in street clothes was talking to a dealer at Kirkpatrick's Guns &
Ammo, less than a mile from the border in Laredo, Texas. He spotted two men repackaging more than 12,000 rounds of ammunition they had just purchased.
An investigation later led to the arrest of Carlos Alberto Osorio-Castrejon and Ramon Uresti-Careaga, both Mexican citizens in the United States
illegally.
Osorio pleaded guilty to being an illegal immigrant in possession of ammunition and was given 10 months in prison. Uresti was found guilty by a jury
and sentenced to 15 months in prison.
The ammunition, the judge told Uresti and the court, "was going to somebody in Mexico involved in some illegal activity -- drug trafficking, alien
smuggling perhaps. Or something else."
Just up the road from Kirkpatrick's, past the taquerias and the Mexican insurance offices, there is yet another gun shop.
"Call me Rocky," said the man who runs Border Sporting Goods. He advertises "What We Don't Have, We Can Get." He sells guns and ammunition and
reloading and hunting equipment. He personally owns more than 100 firearms.
He blamed Mexico for the gun trafficking. "It is not doing enough to stop it," he said. "They are a crooked country." He said U.S. gun laws were too
easily broken. "A crook could care less how many laws you have."
He maintained that most gun dealers were honest and vigilant and report suspicious activity. And he called it unfair to make gun stores responsible
for what their customers do: "That's like holding a car manufacturer liable for traffic accidents."
The dealers here in Sierra Vista said they reported any customer they did not feel comfortable about.
Mike Benton runs Guns & Gear, which is easy to find on East Fry Boulevard; a U.S. flag out front marks the spot. He said two men claiming to be
American citizens recently purchased four or five long guns.
"They had the necessary documents, and an instant FBI check was approved," Benton said. Still, he thought it unusual and notified authorities. "I
never heard back," he said.
Shop owners heard back when they called about Adan Rodriguez. At 335 pounds, Rodriguez was easy to remember after he started showing up at shops in
Mesquite, Texas, outside Dallas.
Over a series of months, Rodriguez purchased 112 assault-class rifles, 9-mm Beretta pistols, revolvers and high- caliber rifles, court records show.
The dealers alerted the ATF's Dallas office, and Tom Crowley, a special agent there, said that an undercover officer and hidden video camera were
planted.
Seduced by money
Arrested, Rodriguez complained that he was making just $1,400 a month laying carpet and had lost his job. He said that his mother was disabled and
that he had hoped to marry soon.
Then a friend of a friend introduced him to "Kati" and "Cesar," and they convinced him to do a little side work for some Mexican clients.
Kati and Cesar provided Rodriguez with cash amounts of up to $12,000, often in thousand-dollar stacks. Sometimes they sent an older Latino man,
"Jefe," ("Boss") to deliver the money for guns.
When he bought the weapons, he took them to safe houses in Dallas.
At the time of his arrest, Rodriguez told the agents, he was being pushed to buy hand grenades and a rocket launcher too.
One of the Berettas was used in a shootout in Reynosa, Mexico, that left a cartel member dead and injured two Mexican federal agents.
In a handwritten letter to The Times from his prison cell in Seagoville, Texas, Rodriguez described how he got in deeper and deeper with the cartels.
"It started out by selling one of my personal guns, and things went on [from] there," he said. "It was an easy way to make some money."
Rodriguez hesitated to write more: "I worry about my safety and my family's safety."
The cartels, as he knows, are well-armed.
|
|
|
Woooosh
Banned
Posts: 5240
Registered: 1-28-2007
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
Mood: Luminescent Waves at Rosarito Beach
|
|
"No one is sure how many U.S.-purchased guns have made their way into Mexico, but U.S. authorities estimate the number in the thousands."
thousands and one- they didn't count mine.
Mexico shouldn't point any blame at the USA until it starts inspecting people and vehicles at the points of entry. They are consisitent, if nothing
else- in their misplacement of blame. They do 0% of the work and pass 100% of the blame.
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
|
|
|
BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
|
|
Woooosh, if I use your logic then it is okay to blame the USA for the drug trafficking going NOB as the USA does not inspect and monitor the entire
border???
Not trying to start a fight, just curious?
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by BajaGringo]
|
|
|
loki
Banned
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-9-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
Mood: really happy
|
|
The USA does everything in its power to stop the drugs from landing in the USA.
Tell me why Mexico does not even take a quick peak at even half the cars that enter at TJ.
I would guess it has to do with the wink,wink,nod,nod attitude of Mexican customs and the government as a whole when it comes to smuggling in special
items and other things back into Mexico.
Lets be honest here. The Mexicans could stop most of what they complain about in days if they wanted .
I want the truth. Do not give me B$
|
|
|
Woooosh
Banned
Posts: 5240
Registered: 1-28-2007
Location: Rosarito Beach
Member Is Offline
Mood: Luminescent Waves at Rosarito Beach
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
Woooosh, if I use your logic then it is okay to blame the USA for the drug trafficking going NOB as the USA does not inspect and monitor the entire
border???
Not trying to start a fight, just curious?
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by BajaGringo] |
They have to start somewhere in inspections. Matching what we do and where we do it would be a start. They have plenty of military to watch the
border if that was important to them. It's not. It's just a diversion from the real problem- the lack of ability to control this mess from within-
so they blame the USA first while they are hiding for cover.
I don't blame Mexico for not stopping any northbound drug traffic. They don't try to stop human trafficing either. If the USA doesn't have the
ability to find cross-border tunnel's big enough to drive through how could the Mexicans. The difference for me is that no one is blaming drug
addiction in the USA on Mexico for their inability to stop the drugs before they hit the USA. Instead they blame the USA for being consumers. They
spin it both ways.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
|
|
|
BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
|
|
I agree with some of your points - its just that I believe that the "blame" falls on both sides of the border. The problem is that one side of the
border has a lot more resources in terms of $$$ and law/military enforcement support to make that happen.
Just wish there was an easy answer. The reality is that there is not...
|
|
|
Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
|
|
The most powerful country in the world can't control it's borders?   Come on, are we really dumb enough to buy into that BS? 
|
|
|
Udo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6346
Registered: 4-26-2008
Location: Black Hills, SD/Ensenada/San Felipe
Member Is Offline
Mood: TEQUILA!
|
|
Hey...
I didn't vote for king George. He like protecting the borders in other countries more than ours.
Udo
Youth is wasted on the young!
|
|
|
Bajajack
Banned
Posts: 370
Registered: 5-20-2007
Location: Arizona
Member Is Offline
|
|
If the rich and powerfull
would stop trying to keep the average peon in his place with the mexicos gun laws they have then maybe they wouldn't be streaming over the border to
buys guns.
\"take what you can, give nothing back!\"
We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the
American people.\'
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
We can have no \"50-50\" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by loki
The USA does everything in its power to stop the drugs from landing in the USA.
Tell me why Mexico does not even take a quick peak at even half the cars that enter at TJ.
I would guess it has to do with the wink,wink,nod,nod attitude of Mexican customs and the government as a whole when it comes to smuggling in special
items and other things back into Mexico.
Lets be honest here. The Mexicans could stop most of what they complain about in days if they wanted . |
The volume of traffic pouring south through the border in the afternoon at rush hour would require a massive reconstruction effort to increase the
number of lanes, otherwise stopping even 1/2 of the cars to look inside would create a huge traffic backup. How many southbound gates are there now? 6
or so? And even if they did that, how many 100s of miles of open border are there?
So I doubt the Mexicans could EVER stop the flow of guns from the United States, let alone do it in days. Come on.....
Drugs flow north to the buyers, guns and money flow south. It's impossible to stop.
When did Nixon start the war on drugs? 40 years ago?
|
|
|
Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
IF ROBERTA HAD HAD BALLS WE WOULD HAVE CALLED HER UNCLE ROBERT!
IF THERE WAS NO DEMAND, THERE WOULD BE NO SUPPLY!
To place Blame on the President or the Rich and Powerful is a Copout or lack of Ability to Think are Act.
Fix the Problem:
All DOPE Addicts into Concentration Camps in Arizona
Shoot All DOPE Dealers
Shoot all Gun Dealers selling Guns to Mexicanos
Problem Solved!
|
|
|
Bajajack
Banned
Posts: 370
Registered: 5-20-2007
Location: Arizona
Member Is Offline
|
|
I gotta wonder Skeet
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
IF ROBERTA HAD HAD BALLS WE WOULD HAVE CALLED HER UNCLE ROBERT!
IF THERE WAS NO DEMAND, THERE WOULD BE NO SUPPLY!
To place Blame on the President or the Rich and Powerful is a Copout or lack of Ability to Think are Act.
Fix the Problem:
All DOPE Addicts into Concentration Camps in Arizona
Shoot All DOPE Dealers
Shoot all Gun Dealers selling Guns to Mexicanos
Problem Solved! |
do you really know where you're coming from, just asking???
\"take what you can, give nothing back!\"
We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the
American people.\'
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
We can have no \"50-50\" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
loki
Banned
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-9-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
Mood: really happy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by loki
The USA does everything in its power to stop the drugs from landing in the USA.
Tell me why Mexico does not even take a quick peak at even half the cars that enter at TJ.
I would guess it has to do with the wink,wink,nod,nod attitude of Mexican customs and the government as a whole when it comes to smuggling in special
items and other things back into Mexico.
Lets be honest here. The Mexicans could stop most of what they complain about in days if they wanted . |
The volume of traffic pouring south through the border in the afternoon at rush hour would require a massive reconstruction effort to increase the
number of lanes, otherwise stopping even 1/2 of the cars to look inside would create a huge traffic backup. How many southbound gates are there now? 6
or so? And even if they did that, how many 100s of miles of open border are there?
So I doubt the Mexicans could EVER stop the flow of guns from the United States, let alone do it in days. Come on.....
Drugs flow north to the buyers, guns and money flow south. It's impossible to stop.
When did Nixon start the war on drugs? 40 years ago? |
The lineups would extend 10 miles up I-5 and so what if the Mexicans really cared about the problem. The lines extend to the south now because the US
is concerned about their inspections.
The Mexicans have the resources in manpower to deal with it and could beg for more money from the US as they always do if they needed more lanes
built.
It will not happen because of the layered corruption that starts at the top of the Mexican government and ends with its customs enforcement officers.
I want the truth. Do not give me B$
|
|
|
k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by loki
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by loki
The USA does everything in its power to stop the drugs from landing in the USA.
Tell me why Mexico does not even take a quick peak at even half the cars that enter at TJ.
I would guess it has to do with the wink,wink,nod,nod attitude of Mexican customs and the government as a whole when it comes to smuggling in special
items and other things back into Mexico.
Lets be honest here. The Mexicans could stop most of what they complain about in days if they wanted . |
The volume of traffic pouring south through the border in the afternoon at rush hour would require a massive reconstruction effort to increase the
number of lanes, otherwise stopping even 1/2 of the cars to look inside would create a huge traffic backup. How many southbound gates are there now? 6
or so? And even if they did that, how many 100s of miles of open border are there?
So I doubt the Mexicans could EVER stop the flow of guns from the United States, let alone do it in days. Come on.....
Drugs flow north to the buyers, guns and money flow south. It's impossible to stop.
When did Nixon start the war on drugs? 40 years ago? |
The lineups would extend 10 miles up I-5 and so what if the Mexicans really cared about the problem. The lines extend to the south now because the US
is concerned about their inspections.
The Mexicans have the resources in manpower to deal with it and could beg for more money from the US as they always do if they needed more lanes
built.
It will not happen because of the layered corruption that starts at the top of the Mexican government and ends with its customs enforcement officers.
|
Oh I see, it's the corruption problem that's the cause of guns getting into Mexico. Yeah, sure.
So what about the idea that if they inspected every car at San Ysidro the smuggling would just move to the mountains and deserts. Perhaps airplanes,
via mail order.
If the U.S., the most powerful country in the world with many fighting for truth, justice, and the American way, can't stop contraband moving north,
how are the Mexicans (citizens of a 3rd world country as you claim) ever going to stop it moving south?
Most illogical of you.
|
|
|
loki
Banned
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-9-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
Mood: really happy
|
|
Who said anything about stopping it. You can not stop it but you can try if you have the political will to do so.
The corruption is a what stops anything from ever getting done in Mexico.
From the cops who demand bribes to all levels of mexican politics. Its the one thing that makes Mexico a failed state and that is not even debated
anymore.
We are getting close to that line in the sand that tells us Mexico can not even protect its citizens anymore.
The Mexicans have no problem stretching out their armed forces across the southern border to keep the undesirables out but have no appetite to patrol
the northern border.
Do the math.
[Edited on 8-11-2008 by loki]
I want the truth. Do not give me B$
|
|
|
Bajajack
Banned
Posts: 370
Registered: 5-20-2007
Location: Arizona
Member Is Offline
|
|
The only way that mexico
will ever get straightened out is if the US Military steps in and starts controlling the other side of the border.
And that may happen sooner than anyone expects.
\"take what you can, give nothing back!\"
We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the
American people.\'
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
We can have no \"50-50\" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
Theodore Roosevelt
|
|
|
thebajarunner
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3718
Registered: 9-8-2003
Location: Arizona....."Free at last from crumbling Cali
Member Is Offline
Mood: muy amable
|
|
Since I started this thread....
My turn,
Simple observation.
Isn't it interesting that, northbound, they can stop us, inspect us, go through our vehicles with great interest, many times starting just south of
Maneadero....
but, they don't ever seem to stop the southbound, at the border, or anywhere else for that matter,
just a simple observation...
|
|
|
BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by thebajarunner
but, they don't ever seem to stop the southbound, at the border, or anywhere else for that matter |
Actually, that is not true. I have seen many military and police stops heading out of Tijuana for points south and east where cars are stopped,
screened and some pulled aside to be searched.
I wish they did it every day...
|
|
|
Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
|
|
So, why was Grover's post deleted?
http://www.dunwalke.com/introduction.htm
http://www.solari.com/about-us/resume/
[Edited on 8-11-2008 by Don Alley]
OK, thanks Grover.
[Edited on 8-11-2008 by Don Alley]
|
|
|
thebajarunner
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3718
Registered: 9-8-2003
Location: Arizona....."Free at last from crumbling Cali
Member Is Offline
Mood: muy amable
|
|
Southbound stops
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by thebajarunner
but, they don't ever seem to stop the southbound, at the border, or anywhere else for that matter |
Actually, that is not true. I have seen many military and police stops heading out of Tijuana for points south and east where cars are stopped,
screened and some pulled aside to be searched.
I wish they did it every day... |
I have been stopped exactly once, Southbound,
they took our oranges.....
(very dangerous, those Central California oranges- much more lethal than .38 or .44 Magnums)
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
|
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
