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BajaBad
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Latin America: "We Did Something Wrong"
I am so thankful I clicked on this link, article by Costa Rican president Óscar Arias talking about the history of the U.S. and of Latin America and
some of the reasons for current realities today, including the economic disparities that many are trying to amend.
http://www.mexidata.info/id2288.html
Not too long ago, Hilary Clinton visited Mexico and gave the message that the U.S. needs to take responsiblity for much of the current drug war and
carnage that has overtaken Mexico. In response, I simply cringe. And as with many non-drug abusing Americans, say in essence - what a load of crap.
Heaven forbid Mexico should be responsible and accountable for violence and drug activity that occurs within its borders. And of course there are not
(most illegal) Mexicans operating in the U.S. funneling drugs through established channels, operating for Mexican-based drug cartels and goodness
sakes - possibly imbibing in illegal substances as well.
But does the U.S. retort back to Mexico in this way? Try to blame Mexican criminals in the U.S. for the what is so often referred to as our
'insatiable demand for drugs' that is fueling illegal activity in Mexico and other countries? No, we take responsibility for criminal activity, and
criminals, that have made their way within our borders - as best as is possible.
And yes, we should help bordering countries and others to but are we RESPONSIBLE for other countries problems. No. 
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rocmoc
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Interesting good speech but a little over simplified. There is plenty of blame to be shared by everyone!
rocmoc n AZ/Mexico
[Edited on 05-25-2009 by rocmoc]
rocmoc n AZ/Mexico
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sancho
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Bajabad, Good points, Mex should
be responsible , but I think the
statement that the US is a
huge/the 'largest'?
consumer for the illegal drugs
that are produced in Mex,
or transit their country, is
not something to try to deny,
simply a statement of fact,
not to mention some 90% of
firearms used by the Cartels
flow freely into Mex from the US
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gnukid
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(please do not be angry with me for pointing what it obvious and well reported)
Perhaps a longer view of opium and drug trade might shed some light here. Not much has changed, accept that there has for centuries been opium and
drug trade among other commodities by the richest and most powerful-Royals, Bankers, Governments.
Its not like there is some secret group and a few clandestine dealers and users?
REMEMBER Iran Contra which I seem to recall was a publicly admitted US Government run case of running cocaine and making crack to flood the market in
LA for profits?
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5758127109364967697
And those indicted and prosecuted felons such as North, continued in the US administration?
Do you recall the recent stories of the CIA torture rendition flight crashing with 4 tons of drugs? etc... etc... etc... more than 30 tons
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/12/19210/608/933/42010...
http://digg.com/world_news/SLOPPY_TRADECRAFT_EXPOSES_CIA_DRU...
http://www.madcowprod.com/01162008.html
http://truthalliance.net/Archive/tabid/67/articleType/Articl...
http://www.wethepeople.la/drugs1.htm
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/W_plane.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8681225708920427234
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article275344...
http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/boekhout.drug.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/arti...
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/12/world/fg-royal12
http://books.google.com/books?id=nFEhbm1DZk0C&pg=PA162&a...
http://www.thaisilkclothes.com/thailand/royal-family.php
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/secretsoc_20...
http://www.menassat.com/?q=en/news-articles/6021-exposing-eg...
http://www.laweekly.com/2007-06-28/news/aaron-cohen-sex-slav...
Boekhout van Solinge, T. (1996), L’héroïne, la cocaïne et le crack en France. Trafic usage et politique, Amsterdam: CEDRO, University of Amsterdam.
Boekhout van Solinge, T. (1997), Drugs in France: Prevalence of Use and Drug Seizures. In: D. Korf & H. Riper, Illicit Drugs in Europe -
Proceedings of the Seventh Annual Conference on Drug Use and Drug Policy in Europe, Amsterdam: University of Amsterdam & SISWO.
Bovenkerk, F. (ed.) (1996), De georganiseerde criminaliteit in Nederland, Deventer: Gouda Quint.
La Dépêche Internationale des Drogues, monthly newsletter of the Observatoire geopolitique des drogues (OGD), various issues.
EMCDDA - European Monitoring Centre For Drugs and Drug Addiction (1996), Annual Report on the State of the Drug Problem in the European Union 1995,
Lisbon: European Communities.
INCB - International Narcotics Control Board (1996), Report of the international narcotics control board for 1996, Vienna: INCB.
Inzake Opsporing (1996), Appendix VIII, The Hague: Sdu (Report of the parliamentary inquiry into organised crime in the Netherlands).
Labrousse, A. & M. Koutouzis (1997), Drugs: the risks for the year 2000. In: D. Korf & H. Riper, Illicit Drugs in Europe - Proceedings of the
Seventh Annual Conference on Drug Use and Drug Policy in Europe, Amsterdam: University of Amsterdam & SISWO.
McCoy, A.W. (1991), The politics of heroin - CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade, New York: Lawrence Hill Books (revised and expanded of the 1972
publication The politics of heroin in Southeast Asia)
OGD- Observatoire geopolitique des drogues (1994), Rapport d’enquête sur les enjeux politiques, économiques et sociaux de la production et du trafic
des drogues au Maroc, Report published on at the request of the Secretary General of the European Commission.
OGD- Observatoire geopolitique des drogues (1995), Géopolitique des drogues 1995, Paris: La Découverte.
OGD- Observatoire geopolitique des drogues (1996), Atlas mondial de drogues, Paris: Presses Universitaires de France.
U.S. Department of Justice (1992), Drugs, Crime, and the Justice System, Washington DC: U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Jutice Statistics.
WHO - World Health Organization (1997), Smoking, drinking and drug taking in the European Region, Copenhagen: WHO.
[Edited on 6-8-2009 by gnukid]
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BajaBad
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Gnukid - will read through some of those links... thanks for posting, most am familiar with but not all. My son just rented for the second time
American Gangster... that´s a good one as well for American drug lore/history with U.S. soldiers & Harlem drug 'cartels' of that time...
The thing that gets my ire about U.S./Mexico is the allocating responsibility for the violence/deaths that occur with the Mexican drug cartles (many
Americans have been found murdered in Tijuana as well, no time to check statistics but that is what I last read from Dept. of State...) to Americans.
Huh? I´m sorry, but do we blame the Vietnamese and their poppy fields for all the cocaine smugging and related problems in the U.S. during the Vietnam
war? Or any other country for our problems?
Of course it is connected, of course we have much drug imbibing and therefore demand for product but so what... Mexico doesn´t? And are Americans
pulling the trigger or doing the beheadings of the grotesque crimes that are occuring all over Mexico? Not that I´ve heard.
OK, don´t want to be too cranky!
And sorry so late in reply, we just - today - got Internet at our apartment, I barely got anything done workwise much less extra at computer centers
the past few months...
Time for a cerveza (6 p.m. our time) !
BajaBad
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tripledigitken
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| Quote: | Originally posted by sancho
not to mention some 90% of
firearms used by the Cartels
flow freely into Mex from the US |
Will you show some documentation of this?
Ken
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Cypress
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The heck with those "blame the USA" jerks.  If it wasn't for the USA they'd
still be scratching around in the dirt for din-din, a lot of 'em still are in spite of multi-million dollars worth of aid from the USA. They can kiss my gringo burro.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
I am so thankful I clicked on this link, article by Costa Rican president Óscar Arias talking about the history of the U.S. and of Latin America and
some of the reasons for current realities today, including the economic disparities that many are trying to amend.
http://www.mexidata.info/id2288.html
Not too long ago, Hilary Clinton visited Mexico and gave the message that the U.S. needs to take responsiblity for much of the current drug war and
carnage that has overtaken Mexico. In response, I simply cringe. And as with many non-drug abusing Americans, say in essence - what a load of crap.
Heaven forbid Mexico should be responsible and accountable for violence and drug activity that occurs within its borders. And of course there are not
(most illegal) Mexicans operating in the U.S. funneling drugs through established channels, operating for Mexican-based drug cartels and goodness
sakes - possibly imbibing in illegal substances as well.
But does the U.S. retort back to Mexico in this way? Try to blame Mexican criminals in the U.S. for the what is so often referred to as our
'insatiable demand for drugs' that is fueling illegal activity in Mexico and other countries? No, we take responsibility for criminal activity, and
criminals, that have made their way within our borders - as best as is possible.
And yes, we should help bordering countries and others to but are we RESPONSIBLE for other countries problems. No.
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The truth comes out eventually... Just last week it was announced that 90% of guns used by narcos in Mexico were NOT traced back to the USA. Only
90% of the guns turned over to the USA by Mexico for testing did. Mexico doesn't even have a gun tracing system. Whole different number.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Wall/allan114.htm
[Edited on 6-17-2009 by Woooosh]
[Edited on 6-17-2009 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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tripledigitken
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That's exactly right!
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Woooosh
Banned
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| Quote: | Originally posted by sancho
Bajabad, Good points, Mex should
be responsible , but I think the
statement that the US is a
huge/the 'largest'?
consumer for the illegal drugs
that are produced in Mex,
or transit their country, is
not something to try to deny,
simply a statement of fact,
not to mention some 90% of
firearms used by the Cartels
flow freely into Mex from the US |
You wanna fact check that last part about the 90%?
[Edited on 6-17-2009 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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rpleger
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Posts: 1087
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Óscar Arias wasn´t blaming the US for anything...If you read the speech he is asking the Latin American country s why they have not done better and
stop blaming other country s for their problems
Richard on the Hill
*ABROAD*, adj. At war with savages and idiots. To be a Frenchman abroad is to
be miserable; to be an American abroad is to make others miserable.
-- Ambrose Bierce, _The Enlarged Devil\'s Dictionary_
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k-rico
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I'll chime in with my often stated viewpoint whenever this issue comes up. It's not the drug users nor the drug traffickers that is the problem, the
problem is the violence caused by the "War on Drugs". Just stop fighting the freaking war. Then the drug users, the drug traffickers, and the rest of
us can live in peace. Sure, there will be some spats, but nothing like the present day carnage.
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BajaBad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rpleger
Óscar Arias wasn´t blaming the US for anything...If you read the speech he is asking the Latin American country s why they have not done better and
stop blaming other country s for their problems |
That´s the whole point Richard 
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BajaGringo
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Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
I'll chime in with my often stated viewpoint whenever this issue comes up. It's not the drug users nor the drug traffickers that is the problem, the
problem is the violence caused by the "War on Drugs". Just stop fighting the freaking war. Then the drug users, the drug traffickers, and the rest of
us can live in peace. Sure, there will be some spats, but nothing like the present day carnage. |
That is too simple a solution. Suggest something much more complicated...
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BajaBad
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And this thread is obviously not in any way 'anti-Mexico'... the majority here chosing to call this beautiful and hospitable country home.
Is actually pro-Mexico. Without monetary help to 'increase their military, etc. & war on drugs, etc.' the country will be much better off.
Arias' comment about Latin countries needing to take responsibility, tax the wealthy, provide education for its citizens, etc. is what Mexico should
be focusing on, IMHO.
Legalizing Marijuana in Mexico city is a brilliant first step, IMHO, again...
Missing Mexican food at the moment, would kill for a fish taco!
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rpleger
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¿KILL FOR A FISH TACO?
There go those violent gringos again.
Richard on the Hill
*ABROAD*, adj. At war with savages and idiots. To be a Frenchman abroad is to
be miserable; to be an American abroad is to make others miserable.
-- Ambrose Bierce, _The Enlarged Devil\'s Dictionary_
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BajaBad
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Don´t even get me started on Danny´s carnitas (Mulege) - It may cause me to get out my beheading instruments as well...
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MitchMan
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Rather than taking the emotional position of whether or not the USA and/or Mexico shares blame for any of the drug problems occuring in Mexico, let's
look at things objectively.
The USA is a very very rich country compared to Mexico. The USA has a much larger population than Mexico. The USA is a gigantic market that behaves
with an absolute thirst for illegal drugs and the USA druggies are perpetually providing billions of dollars to offer and pay sources of drugs.
That's a fact and unmistakably constitutes the incentive for drug production and supply.
Mexico has a lot of poor uneducated people and a lot greater percentage of such poor uneducated people than the USA has. The Mexican government is
full of corruption and inefficiencies that has perpetually made the Mexican government ineffective to deal with its responsibilities to maintain law
and order, maintain a fair ubiquitous application of egalitarian law, let alone effectively take care of all the other responsibilites that are
required to allow their society as a whole to prosper and progress at an appropriate rate and thereby provide competing means for self support to
offset getting involved in trading in drugs.
Most in Mexico are on their own to fend for themselves to more of an extent than US citizens are. In that situation, drug trafficking is very
attractive and apparently doable by Mexicans low lifes, just like it is to low lifes in our own USA inner cities, just like it is to the poor people
in Afghanistan - no different.
It is really just basic economics, which, is the reality of human behavior relating to money and value. Economic reality applies to all humans
equally. It is simply behavior in similar circumstances.
I say, don't bother getting emotional and blaming the USA or Mexico. Instead, let us focus on USA solutions, such as considering whether or not to
legalize certain drugs, removing causes for people choosing drugs in their personal lives in our society, spend sufficiently more money and focus more
resources on law enforcement to interdict the drug trade, do something about arms flow to Mexico, put more pressure big time on Mexico to do more to
fight the drug trade, send resources to Mexico to help fight the drug traffickers.
For Mexico and its citizens: fix your own darn government now and get rid of the corruption in order to get efficient government and start governing
yourselves properly for a change and prosper (your natural resources are so abundant, especially in proportion to your population count).
So what happens if the USA and Mexico do not do what is required of them in these circumstances - well what you will get is an drug problem like the
one that currently exists.
If you want to apply blame, then the USA as a whole is responsible for its huge drug buying market and Mexico is to blame for allowing certain of
their citizens to violently and insidiously engage in drug trafficking. There, you see? The blame game is not a solution.
[Edited on 6-22-2009 by MitchMan]
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Bajahowodd
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Mexico recognizes its own drug problem. Their legislature has quietly moved to decriminalize possession of small amounts. They tried doing that a few
years ago, and the Bush administration basically warned them of some form of retaliation should they do it. It appears that the current administration
has not balked as did the past one.
On the gun issue- 90%. That figure came out in a report commissioned by congress and carried out by a respected, and loyal public servant. The
assumption made in the report was an extrapolation based upon the actual guns traced. He was criticized by Republicans. It could be correct. It could
be wrong. It still doesn't obviate the need to work together to restrict the flow of weapons Southward.
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arrowhead
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
On the gun issue- 90%. That figure came out in a report commissioned by congress and carried out by a respected, and loyal public servant. The
assumption made in the report was an extrapolation based upon the actual guns traced. He was criticized by Republicans. It could be correct. It could
be wrong. It still doesn't obviate the need to work together to restrict the flow of weapons Southward. |
The report is definitely wrong. Mexico only sends guns to the US for examination that it thinks are US origin guns. The weapon of choice of the
druggies is the AK-47 and other fully automatic weaons. Mexico doesn't send those to the US because they don't come from the US. The US doesn't
manufacture, sell or store AK-47's, or the ammo for them. They are coming up from Central and South America. So are the hand grenades. You can't buy
any fully automatic weapons or hand grenades in any gun store in the US.
The real number is that somewhere less than 10% of the weapons in Mexico come from the US.
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