k-rico
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What kind of bird is this?
Stopped by Abreojos for a night on the trip north and saw a lot of these big fellas. What are they?
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DianaT
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Beautiful photo of an Osprey---and yes, there are a lot around Abreojos.
Great detail on that one
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
Beautiful photo of an Osprey---and yes, there are a lot around Abreojos.
Great detail on that one |
Well, waddya know? So that's an Osprey!
They have a pleasant chirp too, not a squawker at all.
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DianaT
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Yes, besides watching them, I also like to listen to them.
BTW---your photo is one of the very few I have ever seen where the osprey does not look angry---it has a sweet look on its face.
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Skipjack Joe
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The talons on that bird are real interesting. Almost forming a complete circle. It becomes easier to see how they're able to lift and carry off a
mullet or spotted bay bass with those things.
I've always been curious about how the big raptors are able to kill their prey so quickly with those claws. I suppose they must pierce the animal with
them. I don't think they're strong enough to crush them by constricting their feet. I say this because the animal seems to be dead by the time they
reach their perch and start with the beak.
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Ken Bondy
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Igor I have an unproven theory about that. In prey animals, I think some form of behavior has evolved which, after the attempt to escape and when the
prey is clearly in the grasp of the predator (in other words, a goner), some sort of mechanism (like shock except deeper) takes over in the prey
animal which effectively stops struggling. This serves two evolutionary purposes 1) it presumably minimizes suffering in the prey animal, and 2) it
avoids injury to the predator (in the form of say, eye damage caused by thrashing). I have observed this type of behavior a few times when I have
seen large moray eels capture a similarly large prey like a scorpionfish. The scorpionfish makes an initial attempt at escape (flight) and there is
a brief struggle as the eel bites down and maneuvers the fish to get it head first down the gullet. But once the head is firmly embedded in the
mouth, there is no further struggle. True, the fins of the scorpionfish go erect but there is no additional body movement as the prey disappears into
the mouth. I have seen this elsewhere with underwater prey/predator encounters. Can't prove it and I have never heard it described scientifically
elsewhere, but I think it is true. If I am right about this there is no reason it would not appy to prey/predator relationships on land, or even the
combo land/water relationship between the osprey and the fish. What is your much more educated opinion? ++Ken++
carpe diem!
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BMG
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
In prey animals, I think some form of behavior has evolved which, after the attempt to escape and when the prey is clearly in the grasp of the
predator (in other words, a goner), some sort of mechanism (like shock except deeper) takes over in the prey animal which effectively stops
struggling. |
Kinda like marriage?
I think the world is run by C- students.
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Skipjack Joe
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Well, Ken, I agree with your observation but am not so sure about the explanation. On the other hand I have nothing better other than shock.
I've seen what you describe during snake feeding at the zoo. Mice will run around the terrarium but once it's bitten it just freezes with no attempt
to escape. It just seems to give up.
Perhaps it's intimidation. Like a school bully who beats up his schoolmates without a struggle. He knows they won't fight back and they know the
outcome is inevitable. So he pursues until he gets a punch in the face.
Speaking of mice. I remember a situation where a group of students were getting a census of kangaroo rats in this one study area. Well, somehow the
darn thing escaped in an enclosed tent and they had a hard time cornering it. The animal got so agitated it just died from fright. Seriously. It died
without being touched. Just scared to death. Perhaps this sort of thing happens with many prey.
P.S. On the other hand, Ken, I'm sure you've come across salmon in alaska that seem to have a large part of their bodies missing. Somehow the fish
escapes from the grizzlies claws and lives on to propagate with it's vertebrae exposed.
P.S.S. Ralphie fights back -
[Edited on 11-3-2009 by Skipjack Joe]
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Ken Bondy
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Interesting observations Igor. In the salmon example you cite, it is possible that powerful evolutionary forces are in play there. The urge to
reproduce might be overpowering everything else in that scenario, like pain, fear, the prey "shock" thing.
Speaking of salmon, I have another theory that I call the "salmon syndrome". It goes like this. To varying degrees in different species, nature
stops taking care of the individual once it determines that it can no longer reproduce, or, is no longer reproducing. With mammals it is less
pronounced, all mammals have some sort of "old age" where things wind down without reproduction. But with some species, like salmon and squid, the
effect is spectacular. Their whole life is focused on one gigantic orgasm, after which the animal immediately dies. In the case of the salmon it not
only dies, but seems to go through some form of strikingly rapid aging process.
As you can imagine my "salmon syndrome" theory has raised all kinds of irreverent responses as to how humans can mitigate this process. They may be
right 
++Ken++
[Edited on 11-3-2009 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BMG
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
In prey animals, I think some form of behavior has evolved which, after the attempt to escape and when the prey is clearly in the grasp of the
predator (in other words, a goner), some sort of mechanism (like shock except deeper) takes over in the prey animal which effectively stops
struggling. |
Kinda like marriage? |
That is hilarious. Never thought of that. Gotta build that into my theory.
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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I think your "salmon syndrome" theory is right on. From an evolutionary point of view you're only worth as much as the number of offspring you
produce. Your whole purpose in life is to reach sexual maturity and have offspring. This insures a bigger gene pool and survival of the species (the
greatest goal). Having our kids take care of us in our old age, Ken, is really a luxury. Probably because we're not in survival mode.
One thought I had to share was in regard to having a background in biology. It just has so many benefits in life. And you have demonstrated that
really well. You just drive about in baja and can put the picture together through observations and thoughts. Everything you look at as you drive
across the landscape brings up thoughts and theories as to why. And they are often major questions. I guess what I'm trying to say is that schooling
never ends. The rewards just keep on coming. Enriching your life.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
One thought I had to share was in regard to having a background in biology. It just has so many benefits in life. And you have demonstrated that
really well. You just drive about in baja and can put the picture together through observations and thoughts. Everything you look at as you drive
across the landscape brings up thoughts and theories as to why. And they are often major questions. I guess what I'm trying to say is that schooling
never ends. The rewards just keep on coming. Enriching your life. |
Interesting theories----both of you, very interesting. Having a Social Science background leads to lots of major questions as we travel, but probably
of a different nature, or just thought about in a different light.
But for the scientific information, we have some of you upon which we can rely---bug, plant, bird identification, land forms and changes, etc. and it
is very educational
Again, I find these theories something to think about---and enjoyed reading them--
BMG--good one, but who is the prey and who is the predator?
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DanO
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BMG
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
In prey animals, I think some form of behavior has evolved which, after the attempt to escape and when the prey is clearly in the grasp of the
predator (in other words, a goner), some sort of mechanism (like shock except deeper) takes over in the prey animal which effectively stops
struggling. |
Kinda like marriage? |
Damn, beat me to it!
\"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.\" -- Frank Zappa
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BMG
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DanO
Damn, beat me to it! |
You can field the question about who is the prey and who is the predator while I try
to get myself out of trouble with Lingillililililingi.
I think the world is run by C- students.
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DianaT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BMG
| Quote: | Originally posted by DanO
Damn, beat me to it! |
You can field the question about who is the prey and who is the predator while I try
to get myself out of trouble with Lingillililililingi. |
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Bajahowodd
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The Salmon Syndrome
Just trying to put some order into the idea. Maybe it's unknowable. Reminded me of one of nature's oddities. A creature well known to those in the
Southwest and Mexico. I speak of the Monarch Butterfly. Monarchs have an interesting life cycle. There are four separate generations of monarchs each
year. The first generation comes in March-April. Once it becomes an adult butterfly, it lays eggs and dies. The second generation is May-June, and the
third, July-August. Here's the really weird thing. These three generations will live as adult butterflies for 2-6 weeks before dying. However, the
fourth generation comes forth in September-October and migrates South, many to Mexico. They winter in the South and then return to whence they came to
lay eggs for the first generation of the next year. The fourth generation of Monarchs lives as adults for 6-8 months. How's that for a curiosity of
nature?
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Osprey
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Great stuff howodd. With my namesake I think one must take into account the bird's prey. In our little bay here the birds live on mullet, needlefish,
ballyhoo, ladyfish and a few others. Mullet put up a few escape wiggles as they are borne aloft while needlefish are a real handfull, (talon full)
start to finish -- hard to kill even after severe trauma. I saved a juvenile osprey from drowning after he was pulled under by a fish too big to lift.
I think sometimes their unique 4 talon grasp makes the catch a do or die affair if they misjudge. I wrapped my Tshirt around the bird's feet to hoist
it into the boat, took it home and eventually got it out of shock, the tongue all cleaned up and when it was ready It flew up near where it nested and
made a perch.
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Bob H
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Wow, all of this wonderful information after viewing one fantastic image of an Osprey. I love that image!
Bob H
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Iflyfish
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Interesting discussion.
I learned that to subdue a bass all one has to do is to grab hold of the lower lip and lift the fish. This puts pressure on the spinal cord and
immobilizes it. Wonder what role spinal damage plays in immobilization of pray.
I have noticed that lions hunt in a group, one gets on the back and one goes for the throat, once they have the throat, it seems that the fight goes
out of the pray. I wonder if in that case oxygen deprivation plays a role, anoxia is anesthetizing and stupor inducing???
I have noticed also on long stretches of road in the Baja that the cacti talk with each other and I have to really concentrate to keep my eyes on the
road as I strain to hear what they are saying.
Iflyfish
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Osprey
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They are not talking. They are singing. Sons of the Pioneers tune. "Keep a movin dan, he's a devil not a man and he spreads the burnin' sand with
water....."
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