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landyacht318
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Ball Joints, tie rod ends, Best brands ?
I'm doing some research in preparation or tearing apart the front end on my '89 dodge Van that needs Lower ball joints and new Control arm bushings at
the minimum. I will be doing the coil springs no matter what.
Obviously I will not be doing any rock climbing, and am not carrying the weight of a diesel 4x4, but I have in the past, and plan to in the future,
take this into areas where I will need to have a little more momentum built up than a 4x4 would.
I was going to get Moog ball joints, but I've heard that quality in the last few years has taken a Big nose dive since they have moved most
manufacturing to well, Mexico. I have not been able to determine if this is true or just rumor.
I have found a lot of the 4x4 CTD guys say Spicer over Moog. When I research tis further I find Mcquay Norris, Spicer and Raybestos ball joints (
the professional grades) are all the same exact product made by Affinia group. Napa's gold is also purported to be this same exact product. The
pictures across all the brands show the same exact photos.
I'm not rich and doubt Carli even makes ball joints for my application. Nor XRF, to the best of my knowledge.
So I'm at the cross roads of Moog vs Spicer/MCN/Raybestos/Napa vs AC Delco. All are around the same price, I just do not want to have to do the job
again soon.
I've heard AC Delco is just a name now, and most likely made by Moog. Any truth to this?
I'm also wondering if a set of constant rate coil springs rated at ~400 more pounds each will make my ride suffer a lot, or just a little. They are
only about 8 dollars more.
Thanks for your time if you care to share your opinion and knowledge.
[Edited on 7-24-2010 by landyacht318]
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bajabass
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Location: La Paz,BCS
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Mood: Want to fish!!!
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Use the Moog or NAPA Gold parts. I just had 3 out of 4 new MN tie rods come in with the dust boots torn, out of the box. It is getting to be like a
slot machine when it comes to finding quality suspension and steering parts. Ya win some, ya lose some.
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landyacht318
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Were the Mcquay Norris boots blue and already permanently installed?
I am under the belief the Raybestos, Mcquay Norris, Spicer and Napa premium are all part of Affinia group which bought out Spicer suspension.
Supposedly the Spicers Ball joints are cold forged bases and studs, and the moogs are 2 piece stamped. I just want to get top quality parts, not
order something and find they are exactly the same as what I could find in Autozone for 1/3 the price.
If there were not so many recent rumors about Moog's quality taking a huge downturn recently, I wouldn't even be considering anything else, but I've
read 30 pages of Google hits on "spicer vs Moog" and Spicer is easily winning.
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landyacht318
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Thanks for the replies! I'm still trying to figure out who's making what for Whom, and I'm gonna be driving to the local parts stores to get an Idea
of quality and comparison.
I am 99% convinced Raybestos chassis components are the same as Mcquay Norris, and Napa Gold. The difference will be in how long the stock has sat on
the shelves, and how many times they changed the boxes.
I've been driving this Van for 9 years now, and it has only gotten heavier as the springs have gotten more tired. I Bottom out over speed bumps now,
and I hope that new front coil springs of the same Diameter will restore the ride height and prevent bottoming out, But when I'm in Baja, I'm even
heavier loaded down, and use a lot more suspension travel.
I wish I knew how the current springs worked when new. I have no basis for comparison. I do know of another Dodge van guy who put the fatter springs
in his, but he has not responded to queries.
Thanks again.
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bajabass
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Posts: 2016
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Location: La Paz,BCS
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Mood: Want to fish!!!
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Ok. MN makes a base level part, and their Extreme series. Base level is natural finish, black boot. Their Extreme series are anodized, beefier
construction, blue dust boots. Not all parts are available in Extreme. Moog has base level, and their Problem Solver series. PS series parts are
again, stronger, prettier, poly style boots in some cases. I do believe Moog is a seperate manufacturing co. NAPA Gold and MN Extreme are identical. I
used only TRW at my shop for years. They sold the chassis division in the late 80's and the quality went downhill. I switched to Moog, paid more, but
the quality was great. Moog prices went even higher, so I started using MN around 2000. Now MN's quality is poor, most NAPA, Spicer, AC Delco, MN are
"offshore products". Read that as Chinese. They look cheap, the zerk holes are off-center, usually untapped, missing castle nuts, boots, zerks, cotter
pins, ect. The reboxing issue is frustrating, as two identical boxes yield completely different looking parts many times. I now inspect every part as
it is delivered. It sucks!!! Lost time for me costs me mucho dinero. Glad I'm selling the shop and running away to Baja. Springs. Use the Moog
springs, specify HD w/ac. A heavier than stock spring rate. Also Dodge vans remained unchanged for many years. In the 70's you could get a van with a
440 ci engine. Much heavier. See if the springs will interchange. If a 1975 smallblock spring matches your spring, a 1975 bigblock spring will work.
Another tip, use the KYB Mono-Max shocks and poly swaybar bushings and endlink kits. 7 on a Sunday morning and I feel like I am working! LOL Oh, all
this free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it!!!
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wessongroup
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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Thanks bass... it all helps.. even the free stuff... as that usually comes with no vested interest in anything... just sharing years of knowledge...
Bet you have a few busted knuckles... along with a lot of other things.. from the "shop"...
Just on other question, will you miss "customer service"?
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bajabass
Super Nomad
Posts: 2016
Registered: 10-4-2006
Location: La Paz,BCS
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Mood: Want to fish!!!
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HA, I love my customers. Just don't love their cars anymore.  After 35 years of
turning wrenches for a living, I've lost several square feet of skin, an inch or two at a time. Even broke my own nose, and KO'd myself twice. Just
pure luck, marrying the doctor. I kept her busy, now she is in La Paz, so I've
assumed the first aid duties again.
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landyacht318
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Thankyou for sharing your knowledge. I am now leery of buying anything online that I cannot inspect.
I do remember buying Idler arms many years ago from the same store. Same packaging/ part numbers. One didn't have the grease zerk, one did, but the
receptacle was not threaded. Foolishly I put them in anyway, and neither lasted more than 14 months.
Having investigated spring rated and load capacities I am no longer convinced that the springs I alluded to are designed to carry 400 more lbs. I
have found even more springs which would physically fit, I think, but are 2 inches taller.
Color me confused.
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landyacht318
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I guess I am going to have to goto all the AP stores in my area and inspect the parts myself. This reboxing phenomena is BS!
The springs I have now are 22 year old 7270's, at least the diameter is the same.
SPRING#//BAR DIA//INSTALL HEIGHT///LOAD///SPRING RATE//
==========================================================
7270--------.812----------11.25---------------2264--------855
7272--------.875----------11.25---------------2659--------965
---------------------------------------------------------------
7226--------.906----------13.13---------------1725--------1114
7226s-------.906----------13.12---------------2224--------1113
My springs install between lower control arm and frame.
I would like some more ground clearance without using coil spring spacers.
Once again, your expertise and opinions are much appreciated.
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wessongroup
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Posts: 21152
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Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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bass, from what you said, you take them as they come.. and it would appear you are to another level... by pure luck..
hang it there.. and best wishes...
oh, meant to say... have some scars.. my wife a long time ago.. cut a cartoon out of the news paper... was from a "Hi and Louise" strip.. I don't know
if they are still around, have not read a newspaper in many moons..
But, the joke was ... Louise is setting in the front room in a high back chair, and Hi is walk down the hall with his tool box... Louise say... "make
sure and not get blood on the carpet"
Louise is reading a news paper sitting in the chair.. not ever looking at HI..
Give you an idea of me going out and working on things.. but, did it.. had too... no money at that time.. had to fix it myself..
Which I didn't mind, as a fact of fact when young was "into" cars.. but, as one gets a family and the other things .. playpens, strollers ... well,
back then .. one has to comprise a certain amount on "fun" cars at least I had too ..
Think from now on all you have to worry about is, cuts from opening beers.. or fishing tackle.. or may a fish you haul on board that takes a bit out
of you.. (hope you share)
[Edited on 7-25-2010 by wessongroup]
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bajabass
Super Nomad
Posts: 2016
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Location: La Paz,BCS
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Mood: Want to fish!!!
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Trust me, a new pair of HD springs with a set of the KYB's will be great! You will run into alignment issues if you raise the front to far above stock
height. Not enough camber adjustment range, and still have positive caster. Free height and installed height are two different things. Spring rate at
installed height goes up drastically as you compress a longer sring into a shorter installed height than it was designed for. I've been doing this for
decades, and I still think it is a crapshoot at times. I have learned that a little is better than to much!
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landyacht318
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I have newish KYB Gas -A -Justs on each corner and like them very much. Funds are limited, they are staying. I will get the taller springs out of
my head, and probably get the 7272's over the 7270s that I have now. They are only 5 $ more.
Thanks again.
Is there any truth to Moog quality taking a nose dive? Is there any way for a neophyte to tell whether the part stocked is the Moog of old?
Like if is say Problem solver or not?
Will Baja Napa's honor parts warranties for purchases NOB? Are there enough locations SOB to even consider this?
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bajabass
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Location: La Paz,BCS
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Mood: Want to fish!!!
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Landyacht, I'll pull out my dog-eared Moog spring book at work tomorrow. You need to look by application for a spring that fits your van. If that 7272
is listed for your van, it should work. It will lift the van some, and by spring rate it will take an extra 110 pounds of force, per spring, to
compress it every inch of travel. Slight lift, slightly stiffer. If it lifts it too far, trim half a coil and check it. One nice thing, the Dodge
springs just fall out compared to most other vehicles. I have several compressors, and they can all hurt you if something slips. Been chased around
the shop by more than one spring!
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bajabass
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Posts: 2016
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Location: La Paz,BCS
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Mood: Want to fish!!!
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So far, I have not seen or heard about any problems with Moog. I am not all over the internet checking though. My problem is all my local undercar
warehouses have gone to MN, Spicer, Dana, AC Delco. Yeah, the reboxing is BS! Check every part at the store! The Gas-A-Justs are fine, the Mono-Max is
a Gas-A-Just on steroids. No idea on the warranty, but good luck.
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wessongroup
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Posts: 21152
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Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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Glad to see you mention the KYB's.. just put them on all around on the old Bronco
Made a nice difference.. I'm not going rock climbing.. or most any of the true off road.. but I wanted to be somewhat prepared for what DianaT put
up... knew it couldn't all be like the toll road..
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=46895
Have not been way south in a very long time.. the access road along the power lines looked better than the "paved" road ..
Kinda remember it that way from long ago.. one did not think of "how long" when driving on some of the old roads.. as they we really, really bad in
places or no road at all.... just looking for a "way"..
Going to try and stay on the "best roads" for an number of other reasons.. but, after last years rains that washed out the bridges.. and then the
earthquake.. we got a 4 X 4... just in case one needs it... oh, forgot the Tsunami alert too (never thought of that one big time)
These types of "roads" would look to be really hard on your vehicle if one is not careful..
The pictures of road conditions might not be a bad idea for a whole thread.. think a lot of areas bad roads could be identified for a lot of folks
coming down.. or going some place ...
Might be too big a project.. but thanks DianaT for yours I sure know if going there to use extreme caution.. I'm not in a race... and tearing up a
front end down on that road would not be a lot of fun... at least for me...
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landyacht318
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The 7272 is listed on every parts site I have been on as the HD replacement.
I put a caliper on my 22 year old rusted springs and they most closely match the 7270's.
Thank you for the explanation. My 400 LB number was fantasy.
My van is a raised roof conversion van I have converted to a camper. I do carry about 800 to 1000 lbs of gear more than if unloaded, not including
the 220 lb Nut loose behind the wheel.
You have pretty much made me decide on the MOOG 7272's.
http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MOO...
Now I wish I could find the best quality ball joints. I have visited 20 pages of google hits and Spicer seems to win over moog for longevity, but
of course Spicer is now Affinia( Macquay norris extreme/Raybestos professional/Napa gold).
The TRE's are gonna have to wait until I can afford new tires as well.
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bajabass
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Posts: 2016
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Location: La Paz,BCS
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Go with your gut! Baja will eat them up anyway LOL !! My wife took a brand new Honda Element to La Paz. One trip and she blew a rear shock and
shredded the OE Goodyear Wrangler HP's. The day before she headed back for good, rear KYB's and 4 Yokohama Geolander HT/S tires. A little noisey, but
much tougher, better traction. I'll be taking a set of front struts down with me. I think it is going to be a good little Baja car. Our houses in La
Mision and La Paz are on dirt roads that range from OK, to OH $h!T. Bye bye b-tchin Tundra, hello beater 4x4. I'm not going to destroy a big $$$
truck.
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landyacht318
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Back in 2003, before i knew how to work on my van, I had a shop install a set of KYB g-a-J up front.
In 2007 the tabs sheared off at the control arm. I brought them back to the shop where it was determined they were too long for the Van.
Got the correct ones installed for free. I assume KYB honored the lifetime warranty.
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landyacht318
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Bajabass, what's your take on this outfit?
http://www.xrfchassis.com/difference-better.htm
The tire club sell the part numbers for my van for a very good price, and supposedly the diesel 4x4 guys swear by them. It appears to be a high
quality product despite Taiwanese or Thai manufacturing.
I am going Moog control arm bushings, Springs (7272) and coil spring isolators, and am now off to the local parts stores to do some inspection on
whats locally available.
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El Camote
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Off Road Element
| Quote: | Originally posted by bajabass
My wife took a brand new Honda Element to La Paz. One trip and she blew a rear shock and shredded the OE Goodyear Wrangler HP's. The day before she
headed back for good, rear KYB's and 4 Yokohama Geolander HT/S tires. A little noisey, but much tougher, better traction. I'll be taking a set of
front struts down with me. I think it is going to be a good little Baja car. |
Bass, I'm very interested to hear more specifics about the mods to your Element. I officially Baja tested mine for the first time last month on the
Gonzaga Bay road towing a Bajabug. It made it back in one piece. I was impressed.
here's the rig at Punta Bufeo
[Edited on 7-27-2010 by El Camote]
Knowledge is good. - Emil Faber
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