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Santiago
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Charles Bowden interview regarding Ciudad Juarez
Podcast
Very interesting viewpoint of someone who has had a long, deep relationship with Juarez in particular and Mexico in general.
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elgatoloco
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Wow. What a sad, depressing situation for the people of Juarez and Mexico. 
He is correct that it is diffucult to "wrap one's head around" what is going on there.
It is hard not to agree that NAFTA is a failure and needs to be reformed and the war on drugs as currently prosecuted is a HUGE failure and a huge
waste of money.
Desperation for sure.
MAGA
Making Attorneys Get Attorneys
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Santiago
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One of the stats he quoted really struck me; the cost of living in Juarez is 90% of El Paso but a full time job at a NAFTA factory pays $75/week.
Anyone know if this is accurate?
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gnukid
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"This is a city that until quite recently was a poster child for free trade. This was the model. The model is producing death. It is producing
adolescents that can't get work, can't afford to go to school and join gangs and become murderers..." Bowden
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
"This is a city that until quite recently was a poster child for free trade. This was the model. The model is producing death. It is producing
adolescents that can't get work, can't afford to go to school and join gangs and become murderers..." Bowden |
Really? How illuminating! And I thought the violence was due to the drug cartels fighting each other and ruining the city. Learn something new every
day.
[Edited on 8-8-2010 by k-rico]
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gnukid
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
"This is a city that until quite recently was a poster child for free trade. This was the model. The model is producing death. It is producing
adolescents that can't get work, can't afford to go to school and join gangs and become murderers..." Bowden |
Really? How illuminating! And I thought the violence was due to the drug cartels fighting each other and ruining the city. Learn something new every
day.
[Edited on 8-8-2010 by k-rico] |
The author Charles Bowden does illuminate a very confusing and debilitating circumstance that is perpetuated by the vast ignorance of communities and
societies to see the true face of the drug war. It's everyone, we are all in effect participants, the author interviews many people and visits many
murder sites to find out who, what where and how. Yet few, including myself, are willing to see the incestuous nature of the drug trade that permeates
government, military, police, schools, businesses, the church, individuals and society, culminating in the total breakdown of the society based on
profit for a decreasing profit for the many and increasing profit for a few.
This increasing failure resulting in the loss of economy and security is something I have great difficulty understanding but the radio interview is
worth a listen to put a face on the problem, the people are just like you and me some are killed for not participating, not paying extortion, not
paying for kidnapping fees, or for paying the wrong person. The military train people to kill, who then go kill for money or under orders. The money
is monetized into futures derivatives based on future growth of money laundering banking futures, credit based on deposits, prisons and policing
futures, slave prison labor, and yet all along we do not invest in parks, recreation, education, streets, arts, music, culture and those things that
create society and security.
War on Drugs: Why the US and Latin America Could Be Ready to End a Fruitless 40-year Struggle
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/08/08
[Edited on 8-8-2010 by gnukid]
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
One of the stats he quoted really struck me; the cost of living in Juarez is 90% of El Paso but a full time job at a NAFTA factory pays $75/week.
Anyone know if this is accurate? |
The cost of living number of 90% is suspect. I live in TJ, own a house and a condo, which I rent out (3 bdrm, 2 bath, modern - $500/month) and I'd say
housing, the biggest factor, is about 30% of San Diego costs. Probably similar in Juarez.
Also, my 30 year old step son, born and educated in TJ, works in a maquiladora factory in Tecate. Office job that pays around $500 per week and
includes full medical benefits. Granted, he has one of the better jobs, but they are there.
[Edited on 8-8-2010 by k-rico]
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gnukid
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the author compared El Paso to Ciudad Juarez for costs of food, transportation, housing and overhead etc... It was not a comparison of San Diego to TJ
condo pricing.
K-Rico you seem interested in the subject but unwilling to consider it seriously? I think that describes nearly all of us.
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Donjulio
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I would imagine that it is all orchestrated and leading to the "need" for the North American Union.
Yeah I know, I have some left over tinfoil if you want one too.
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Timo1
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Mood: Lovin every minute of it
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This whole discussion is SOOOOOO baja
sold out and got out !!!
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
the author compared El Paso to Ciudad Juarez for costs of food, transportation, housing and overhead etc... It was not a comparison of San Diego to TJ
condo pricing.
K-Rico you seem interested in the subject but unwilling to consider it seriously? I think that describes nearly all of us. |
The assumption that comparisons of San Diego to TJ and El Paso to Juarez would yield similar results is probably safe. I really doubt the cost of
living in Juarez is 90% the cost in El Paso.
I do find the grand new world order conspiracy that you attribute everthing that's evil to interesting, and I have read about it since you informed me
of it. The believers sure spin quite a story and have made some well produced videos. I just don't buy it. Fiction sprinkled with a bit of truth here
and there to make it believable to those so inclined.
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Bajahowodd
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There may be some difference in the comparative costs, in that San Diego is a higher cost area than El Paso. Or is the secret that El Paso is so low
cost? Been there. You'd have to pay me to live there.
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Donjulio
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
the author compared El Paso to Ciudad Juarez for costs of food, transportation, housing and overhead etc... It was not a comparison of San Diego to TJ
condo pricing.
K-Rico you seem interested in the subject but unwilling to consider it seriously? I think that describes nearly all of us. |
The assumption that comparisons of San Diego to TJ and El Paso to Juarez would yield similar results is probably safe. I really doubt the cost of
living in Juarez is 90% the cost in El Paso.
I do find the grand new world order conspiracy that you attribute everthing that's evil to interesting, and I have read about it since you informed me
of it. The believers sure spin quite a story and have made some well produced videos. I just don't buy it. Fiction sprinkled with a bit of truth here
and there to make it believable to those so inclined. |
I believe you got that backwards. Its more like truth sprinkled with a little fiction to make people disbelieve or question or claim "conspiracy
theory".
Watch the videos and documentaries on Link Tv, a channel not owned by mainstream media. Especially current documentaries:
Plunder - the crime of our time
Monsanto
David VS. Monsanto
The Corporation Part 1 and 2
Nuclear Tipping Point
9/11 - Press for Truth
Now if anyone will actually take the time to watch some of these I think you will have a whole new perspective on gnukids posts. This is no longer a
conspiracy theory. It is a conspiracy reality.
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Bajahowodd
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Maybe it's time to consider a trip to another planet, or cryogenics; Cause if the whackos of gnukid's world were really present, we're all doomed.
Just thinking sour apples.
At the same time, for several decades, perhaps thanks the the Northwestern School of Business, and really a hat tip to Peter G. Peterson, the US
economy has been allowed to dissolve. Sure, if you choose your indices, things look great, only because the numbers that flow into GDP and alike,
include massive amounts of money that is literally created out of thin air, casino style. There is a school of thought that basically says that
profits trump jobs. So, when millions of well paying and benefited jobs migrate overseas, those folks don't care.
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GEMcC5150
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There is a real need for real work in Baja. There is also a need for people who want to work. Money is not the key reason people don't want to work.
You can offer way more that the job is worth and still not get quilty or even workers to show up. It is the way of Baja many want a job and money
but few are will to work for it.. Some no many stop looking for work as soon as they find a job.
Not blame NAFTA it only works if people work. Sin ie drough pay and it pays well. who wouldn't take a risk 2000 us a day oh ya it mighy cost you your
life but what were you doing before nayway sitting it the Plaza?
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gnukid
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
the author compared El Paso to Ciudad Juarez for costs of food, transportation, housing and overhead etc... It was not a comparison of San Diego to TJ
condo pricing.
K-Rico you seem interested in the subject but unwilling to consider it seriously? I think that describes nearly all of us. |
The assumption that comparisons of San Diego to TJ and El Paso to Juarez would yield similar results is probably safe. I really doubt the cost of
living in Juarez is 90% the cost in El Paso.
I do find the grand new world order conspiracy that you attribute everthing that's evil to interesting, and I have read about it since you informed me
of it. The believers sure spin quite a story and have made some well produced videos. I just don't buy it. Fiction sprinkled with a bit of truth here
and there to make it believable to those so inclined. |
I mentioned that I thought the radio show was enlightening by putting a face on the problem which is otherwise faceless. I have made no theories,
conclusions or attributions myself and I find it odd that you and a few others are projecting upon me, suggesting that I have a theory about the drug
war, I do not, I fid it very confusing, I said so.
If you are interested in this topic thread, why not make a comment about your opinion on the broadcast or the subject of the discussion. Once more
I'll state, I found Charles Bowden's work enlightening.
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gnukid
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Maybe it's time to consider a trip to another planet, or cryogenics; Cause if the whackos of gnukid's world were really present, we're all doomed.
Just thinking sour apples.
... |
As opposed to being 'whackos of Gunikd's world', in prior discussions I have linked to some of the most significant political authors of influence of
the last 200-300 years, who wrote books cataloged in our libraries as significant to our current political history, and you Howard turn those
historical references into a personal assault or attribution to my world view or my credibility? Absurd.
For reference in other threads on different subjects, I mentioned, Rothschild, Cecil Rhodes, Albert Pike, Manly P. Hall, Lionel Curtis, Guissepe Mazzini, Francis Galtan, Round Table, Fabian strategy, Nights Templar etc... and in many cases I linked to encyclopedia references of them as well as their
written work. You can do your own research and search their material but to deny their existence or their influence is simply ignorance or arrogance.
For further reference you may look into drug shipments through Mena Arkansas during the Governorship of Bill Clinton (a Rhodes Scholarship recipient)
or drug shipments through Florida during Jeb Bush reign, or perhaps you will recall the relationship of Iran-Contra to Bush... etc. ad infinitum or
you may ask yourself, as I do, why do George Bush Sr and Jr belong to one of three satanic societies at Yale, as well as the vast majority of US and Mexican Presidents claim membership to the Scottish Rites of Freemasons? Or as
this young woman's research shows, virtually all US Presidents are closely related to the same family. Find out what they are and what they believe and it might shed light into our
history and this murderous yet highly profitable drug war. Ask why opium production has skyrocketed in Afghanistan since the US military arrived.
On the topic at hand about the drug war, we have some facts to draw upon, it's not made up or fantasy, though it is confusing, there is lower crime rate around the USA while the crime rate in the border region and Ciudad Juarez has increased at the same time we have contributed 400million to increased military and policing in the region in Mexico. We recently had many case of US/Mexico banks admitting funding drug trade and they paid fines associated with money laundering. A number of jet planes have been caught which are CIA rendition flights returning with Drugs, some of these crashed or were identified in Mexico.
Now as far as what to do, I think these authors as well as Charles Bowden do provide insight, this is what I gather from Bowden's work.
We must work together as a community to build our neighborhoods into secure and safe regions by being involved, funding education, arts, recreation,
streets, parks and infrastructure. Police must be mandated to walk precincts and live in precincts. Military must be required to fulfill the role of
military which is to guard and secure our borders. Immigration must be regulated to meet the needs of the country and it's economy, if we do not have
jobs and can not support increased social services for nonworkers we must reduce immigration. Wages must be living wages. No one can be above the law,
not politicians or police or military. They must be held to the legal standard absolutely. Banking industry must pay their fair share of taxes on
transactions and be regulated to reduce derivative markets which profit on the backs of others and generate no productivity.
Howard if you have something to contribute from your personal research or opinion that would be welcome but do not project these characters history as
somehow reflective upon my personal worldview, it's our Mexican-American history.
Hopefully we can have a discussion about community and politics without turning toward personal attacks.
[Edited on 8-9-2010 by gnukid]
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wessongroup
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Hey, thanks for all the links... like to read...  and hear different takes ... it all helps...
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DENNIS
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I've been a fan of Bowden since he wrote, "Down By The River."
Look it up.
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MsTerieus
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
the author compared El Paso to Ciudad Juarez for costs of food, transportation, housing and overhead etc... It was not a comparison of San Diego to TJ
condo pricing.
K-Rico you seem interested in the subject but unwilling to consider it seriously? I think that describes nearly all of us. |
The assumption that comparisons of San Diego to TJ and El Paso to Juarez would yield similar results is probably safe. I really doubt the cost of
living in Juarez is 90% the cost in El Paso.
I do find the grand new world order conspiracy that you attribute everything that's evil to interesting, and I have read about it since you informed
me of it. The believers sure spin quite a story and have made some well produced videos. I just don't buy it. Fiction sprinkled with a bit of truth
here and there to make it believable to those so inclined. |
I am wondering why you brought up Gnukid's New World Order ideas on this thread. They are not relevant to it. I suspect it's because you could not
prevail in an argument against Gnukid's (valid) points above, so you changed the subject. By the way, I imagine that the cost of living in El Paso is
nowhere near the cost of living in San Diego. (And yes, I do think Gnukid's conspiracy theories are whacko!)
[Edited on 8-10-2010 by MsTerieus]
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