| Pages:
1
2
3 |
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5896
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Will The Border Ever Be Secure Enough For Immigration Hawks?
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/02/will-the...
Border security could be the issue that kills immigration reform. And yet, by most measures, the U.S.-Mexico border has never been safer.
The bipartisan group of U.S. senators seeking comprehensive immigration reform have proposed a "trigger" mechanism, whereby a path to citizenship
would be contingent on increased border security. President Obama and liberals have not endorsed the idea, although the president is "committed to
increasing our border security further," according to White House Press Secretary Jay Carney.
Disagreement over the trigger is the largest current discrepancy between the Senate and White House versions of immigration reform. It could cause the
whole thing to fall apart. Yet the idea -- expressed by both sides -- that the border needs more security may be the biggest myth of the immigration
debate, according to Rep. Beto O'Rourke.
A newly elected Democrat, O'Rourke represents El Paso, Texas, the border city that shares a street grid -- and 11 border inspection stations -- with
the Mexican city of Juarez. El Paso also has the lowest crime rate of any large U.S. city. (The second-safest large city? It's on the border, too: San
Diego.)
The common assumption, O'Rourke told me recently, "is that the border is not secure." In fact, by almost any measure -- crime, unauthorized border
crossings, resources devoted to border patrol -- the U.S.-Mexico border has never been more secure than it is now.
The problem for the immigration debate is that those who claim we need more border security are rarely called upon to prove it. No one has proposed a
set of concrete standards; rather, some are calling for a subjective evaluation to be made by border-state governors, some of whom have political
incentives to exaggerate the threat -- and track records of doing so.
Meanwhile, there's a downside to the increasingly militarized border, O'Rourke claims. In human terms, it results in more deaths. In fiscal terms, it
wastes federal-government dollars that could be put to better use. And in economic terms, long wait times at the border -- due in part to the zealous
but not very effective pursuit of contraband -- stifle the flow of trade that is a major driver of the U.S. economy.
Does the Mexican border need more security? Here are a few facts to consider.
* American border regions are not crime-ridden. El Paso and San Diego were America's two safest cities with populations over 500,000 in 2012,
according to CQ Press. In 2010, at the height of Mexico's drug war, Juarez recorded more than 3,000 murders; El Paso had just five. On average,
violent crime rates in U.S. border regions are lower than those of the rest of the nation.
* Terrorists are not coming over the border. There's never been a reported case of a terrorist attack in the U.S. that involved someone coming across
the Mexican border. A congressional subcommittee report on the threat of cross-border terrorism cited unsubstantiated claims and three specific cases,
including a Tunisian cleric caught hiding in the trunk of a car in San Diego who was not accused of involvement in any terrorist activity. The other
two also were not linked to specific terrorist plots.
* There are not "bombs exploding in El Paso" or "decapitated bodies in the desert." The former claim was made by Texas Gov. Rick Perry in 2010, the
latter by Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer the same year. But Perry appeared to be talking about something that happened in Mexico, not the U.S., and Brewer's
claim couldn't be substantiated -- she later said she misspoke. The Senate plan proposes giving border-state governors, among other officials, the
final say over whether the border is secure enough to trigger a path to citizenship -- a subjective measure that highlights the lack of a quantitative
standard for security.
* The border patrol is bigger than ever. The number of agents has quintupled in the past two decades, from 4,028 in 1993 to 21,394 in 2012. In 2010,
the federal government spent more than $17 billion on customs and enforcement at the border. The billions of dollars already devoted to border
security pale in comparison to what it would cost to build a fence, as many politicians advocate: In Texas alone, a border fence would cost an
estimated $30 billion.
* Illegal border crossings are at a 40-year low. The number of migrants caught by the Border Patrol is down 61 percent since 2005 and is at its lowest
level since 1972. The average agent catches just 20 migrants per year. More Mexicans are now thought to be leaving the U.S. than entering each year,
largely due to the stalled American economy. (Nonetheless, the number of illegal crossers caught each year is greater than 300,000.) Meanwhile, more
migrants are dying in the desert, as stepped-up security forces would-be crossers into more and more inhospitable areas.
Borderfactcheck.org
* Lots of drugs do still come across. Narcotics seizures on the border are at all-time high levels, according to the Justice Department. "While this
indicates more effectiveness at stopping drugs, it also shows that traffickers are not being deterred" by present levels of security," notes the
Washington Office on Latin America, an American non-profit.
* "Security" has consequences. At least 15 civilians, most of them Mexican, have been killed by Border Patrol agents since 2010, including three
Mexican teenagers fatally shot in separate incidents after allegedly throwing rocks at agents, and a father who was picnicking with his family when he
was shot and killed.
* It can take three or four hours to cross the border -- legally -- from Mexico. And that costs the U.S. economy money: Many Juarez residents make day
trips to shop in El Paso, where the U.S.'s lower tariffs on Chinese goods and agricultural subsidies make numerous products cheaper to buy here than
in Mexico. According to O'Rourke, there is a supermarket in south El Paso that sells more eggs per square foot than any other store in the U.S.
* Stepped-up security is hampering trade. And it's not just El Paso that's harmed by that. According to a report by the Wilson Center, six million
U.S. jobs depend on trade with Mexico, which amounts to half a trillion dollars of goods and services per year. O'Rourke hopes to persuade more
members of Congress to support immigration reform by pointing to the economic effects of cross-border trade on their home districts far from the
border.
|
|
|
gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Considering the border is wide open to pedestrian crossing this article is pure fiction. The border has massive pedestrian traffice along the fence,
under over and through holes. I have observed the pedestrian gates in TJ and they do not check most peoples papers they just hold up a plastic bag
with a piece of paper and walk through and of course they do not ask anyone with light skin for proof, in fact you more likley to get a "step to the
right and move along." Most cities in California at least are sanctuary cities menaing they can not hassle or arrest someone for not having id while
driving or any misdemenor. And new laws say that a person may say I went to highschool here and that's it they are free to go-no checks nothing.
I am friends with Mexicans in the USA and they have bank accounts, cars and even houses but no valid id. crazy. Except now Washington State apparently
gives drivers license without formal id so they go all the way there for a dl with fake name to start off "legally". Then they pay no income tax
and/or file other peoples returns and get the refunds and the USA never follows up on any of this. Imagine what would happen if you pulled this in any
other country, you would be in big trouble, but not the USA. And if someone in the family is legal they claim every other person as a dependent
including those in Mexico and receive those deductions and benefit$.
USA #1 in tiered workforces with loopholes to avoid taxes for cheats
|
|
|
Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
|
|
It's a nice little escape clause....
"No immigration reform until the border is secure...blah, blah, blah....." says the blowhole.
My question to the blowhole would be to define secure and then we can assess any progress.
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
It's a nice little escape clause....
"No immigration reform until the border is secure...blah, blah, blah....." says the blowhole.
My question to the blowhole would be to define secure and then we can assess any progress. |
Surely we can define & measure "secure" fully knowing that it will never be fool proof. The Stats are down now for lots of reasons, not the least
being the state of the USA economy. Having lived within 25 miles of the border with Mexico for 43 years of my life (SoCal), I can assure you that it
is NOT secure by any stretch of the imagination at this time, but we are making progress.
Barry
|
|
|
SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7070
Registered: 8-5-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
I have observed the pedestrian gates in TJ and they do not check most peoples papers they just hold up a plastic bag with a piece of paper and walk
through and of course they do not ask anyone with light skin for proof, in fact you more likley to get a "step to the right and move along."
|
You have "observed the pedestrian gates in TJ". Huh? You must be thinking about the spot where you enter the building walking north. That's not where
you are cleared to enter the US. Everybody's ID is thoroughly checked at counters inside the building. There are many armed agents inside and usually
a couple of drug sniffing dogs being led on a short leash through the lines of people. It's tight security inside the building.
I use a passport card. The agent takes it, slides it through a card reader and then the agent's screen displays data which he reads. They always look
at the photo and then at your face to make sure they match. Any bags being carried, including women's purses are put through a x-ray machine.
Everybody needs the correct ID and everybody and every bag is checked.
The border is not "wide open to pedestrian crossing" as you claim, especially in San Diego / TJ area. Try sneaking across from TJ sometime, you won't
get far.
[Edited on 2-22-2013 by SFandH]
|
|
|
Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
It's a nice little escape clause....
"No immigration reform until the border is secure...blah, blah, blah....." says the blowhole.
My question to the blowhole would be to define secure and then we can assess any progress. |
Surely we can define & measure "secure" fully knowing that it will never be fool proof. The Stats are down now for lots of reasons, not the least
being the state of the USA economy. Having lived within 25 miles of the border with Mexico for 43 years of my life (SoCal), I can assure you that it
is NOT secure by any stretch of the imagination at this time, but we are making progress.
Barry |
I'm not claiming the border is secure. I just haven't heard any politician define secure.
|
|
|
gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
I have observed the pedestrian gates in TJ and they do not check most peoples papers they just hold up a plastic bag with a piece of paper and walk
through and of course they do not ask anyone with light skin for proof, in fact you more likley to get a "step to the right and move along."
|
You have "observed the pedestrian gates in TJ". Huh? Are you talking about walking north into the US? If so you must be thinking about the spot where
you enter the building, that's not where you are cleared to enter the US. Everybody's ID is thoroughly checked at counters inside the building. There
are many armed agents inside and usually a couple of drug sniffing dogs being led on a short leash through the lines of people. It's tight security
inside the building.
I use a passport card. The agent takes it, slides it through a card reader and then the agent's screen displays data which he reads. They always look
at the photo and then at your face to make sure they match. Any bags being carried, including women's purses are put through a x-ray machine.
Everybody needs the correct ID and everybody and every bag is checked.
The border is not "wide open to pedestrian crossing" as you claim, especially in San Diego / TJ area. Try sneaking across from TJ sometime, you won't
get far.
[Edited on 2-22-2013 by SFandH] |
I have walked it many times because oftentimes we choose to get FMMs for people the day before we go, so I walk back and forth multiple times a day to
assist first time crossing friends and I walk it alone too. Mexicans walk freely back and forth south to north, there is a place where they can check
your documents but oftentimes they waive you through and do not check the masses of Mexicans, for example during morning walk commute 5-7am, that is
the major opening for illegal crossing, either with no docs, fake docs or stolen docs not to mention the corruption of border patrol agents who look
the other way for arranged passages during certain times. Sorry that this is a surprise to you. Where do you think the millions of Mexicans cross
illegally, only in underground tunnels?
|
|
|
SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7070
Registered: 8-5-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
You're hallucinating.
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5896
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by SFandH
You're hallucinating. |
LOL
|
|
|
monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
Member Is Offline
|
|
The best way to end illegal immigration is to require everyone to have a social security card that is instantly verifiable and make it a felony to
hire an undocumented worker.
|
|
|
gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Do you ever notice when you cross south to north by car and the lines are backed up for hours, but they are moving. People are getting through. You
watch ahead and the guy asks a question to a carload of Mexican looking people in front of you and they are off. When it's finally your turn, the
gringo camper, he gets all serious and asks for your passport where have you been, what were doing there, what do you for work, do you have any items
to declare, "no officer nothing, I am bringing nothing back," and he gives you a secondary sticker and when you arrive there it's only grgingo campers
being searched? Why is that? Hmmm another of SF&H's Illusions?
Q. SF&H if we have a big problem with illegal immigration why isn't secondary full of Mexican cars being inspected?
A. To reinforce the illusion of security with Gringos but not to catch illegal immigrants who fuel a low cost workforce and put social pressure on
communities, and further justify fear, police and prison budgets.
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64719
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Do you ever notice when you cross south to north by car and the lines are backed up for hours, but they are moving. People are getting through. You
watch ahead and the guy asks a question to a carload of Mexican looking people in front of you and they are off. When it's finally your turn, the
gringo camper, he gets all serious and asks for your passport where have you been, what were doing there, what do you for work, do you have any items
to declare, "no officer nothing, I am bringing nothing back," and he gives you a secondary sticker and when you arrive there it's only grgingo campers
being searched? Why is that? Hmmm another of SF&H's Illusions?
Q. SF&H if we have a big problem with illegal immigration why isn't secondary full of Mexican cars being inspected?
A. To reinforce the illusion of security with Gringos but not to catch illegal immigrants who fuel a low cost workforce and put social pressure on
communities, and further justify fear, police and prison budgets. |
I don't believe I just read that....??? LOL I have been driving across the border a zillion times since I got my drivers license in 1973... and I have
been smiled and waved across most times after one or a few simple questions... I also have been into secondary a few times, and many times more
questions than usual. I am an Anglo-Saxon American, with a California accent. I have driven cars, trucks, Jeeps, campers, 4WD vans across the
border... I have NEVER witnessed what gnukid sees.
|
|
|
DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
|
|
The problem with having a porous border isn't just people fleeing economic issues......it's the cartels and their criminal intent. Has everybody
forgotten this?
Militarization is the only method available to the US [ short of dumping trillions into Mexico] that will stop this and even that wouldn't work since
we couldn't control the distribution of their nuevo wealth.
Stop the cartels from running rampant through the border and another benefit will be putting a stop to the invasion of illegals without even making a
seperate effort.
|
|
|
Ateo
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5896
Registered: 7-18-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Such a complex issue.
I know one thing: We are spending a poop load of money "securing" the border. Still, anything or anyone who really wants to get across can. Drugs
are my example of that statement.
Monoloco has a point above. But, something tells me our economy would crash hard if there were no illegal immigrants working in the labor force. So,
ultimately I think this is nothing but a political issue that politicians use to get votes and create jobs building fences and guarding fences
(Homeland Security bloat). It's another example of an enormous waste of money, IMHO.
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
A huge part of "securing the border" is a mandatory National ID with electronic sensing on it, plus strict enforcement of laws against hiring
illegals.
This can be done if the will is there.
Barry
|
|
|
gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
The division between illegal immigrants vs legal immigrants is extremely harmful, false and racist manufactured with a complex aocio-economic agenda
to fuel largess, waste, fraud, profits and to sustain the status quo for government, corporations, prison, police oppression of communities, in a
hugely harmful, wasteful and truly corrupt policy which is institutionalized across North America for decades.
Dennis' point is well made, there is a vast corrupt cartel which is at the base of this that fuels the entire corrupt eco-system from military
munitions sales, drug trade, police and prisons, money laundering, bribes, etc... the end result is a massive transfer of wealth out of communities
into the pockets of cartels-who are not run by the under-ground-this is hidden in plain sight.
People would have to have no idea whats going on around them to miss the reality here, idiots tuned into TV and the hegelian dialetic arguing about
Rush and Obama.
|
|
|
gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
A huge part of "securing the border" is a mandatory National ID with electronic sensing on it, plus strict enforcement of laws against hiring
illegals.
This can be done if the will is there.
Barry |
Nonsense, ids with chips means false ids with false chips. People are and have always been free to travel or use their labor for their benefit. If you
want to participate in social security then yes get a valid social security number (verified by the employer). But national ids and biometrics are a
rabbit hole made for corruption and go against our inherent inalienable rights as well as our constitution-those who promote national id have an
agenda which has nothing to do with immigration poicy.
|
|
|
DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ateo
But, something tells me our economy would crash hard if there were no illegal immigrants working in the labor force. |
Unions would assure that. They are another "larger" problem.
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
A huge part of "securing the border" is a mandatory National ID with electronic sensing on it, plus strict enforcement of laws against hiring
illegals.
This can be done if the will is there.
Barry |
Nonsense, ids with chips means false ids with false chips. People are and have always been free to travel or use their labor for their benefit. If you
want to participate in social security then yes get a valid social security number (verified by the employer). But national ids and biometrics are a
rabbit hole made for corruption and go against our inherent inalienable rights as well as our constitution-those who promote national id have an
agenda which has nothing to do with immigration poicy. |
I "promote National ID" and my only "Agenda" is helping to secure the border. I have heard the arguments on both sides ad nauseum, and the anti-ID
folks just don't make the case with me. I say go for it!!! It won't totally cure the problem, but it will sure go a long way in reducing it, I
believe. I see no down-side to it either since almost all "legals" in this Country already have a plethora of ID's used for many purposes.
Barry
|
|
|
akshadow
Nomad
Posts: 287
Registered: 2-1-2007
Member Is Offline
|
|
secure border ?
this will cause a number of people to be outraged, but a secure border is physically possible. If it is not politically possible there should not be
paths to citizenship etc.
A secure border is just that, a border that is not likely to allow unauthorized individuals, or products to cross. I believe it would be relatively
easy to have such a border. It would mean that the US would need to take it serious, not just build a fence, but seriously deter illegal crossing by
not apprehending, but using lethal force for anyone crossing who did not immediately stop if so directed.
How do you think armies stop enemy combatants from crossing their lines? do they ask them to stop when sited? NO
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
