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tripledigitken
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visiting cave paintings
On our last trip south we decided to visit some cave paintings. We decided on the area around El Arco. We ended up spending about 6 hours off the
pavement enjoying the scenery. Sitting in front of paintings some 600+ years old is humbling. Like many sites in Baja much of these paintings are
well overhead and required some type of scaffolding to create, unless you are in the camp that believes they were created by giants. This site is
fairly exposed to the east and is incredibly well preserved considering the location, and orientation to the sun. A twenty minute hike up the side
of the canyon and you are there………….
our first peek at the site
hiking back to the car
El Arco
We didn't go to the mission this trip
[Edited on 3-24-2013 by tripledigitken]
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woody with a view
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very nice!
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elgatoloco
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way cool 
MAGA
Making Attorneys Get Attorneys
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DianaT
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Good ones, Ken. I like the second one best.
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bufeo
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Excellent photos, Ken. We haven't been to that site since 1967. Glad to see that they are still in such good shape. The trail looks well-worn, so
there must be substantial traffic to view them. As I remember we were viciously attacked by those aggressive, man-eating, leaping chollas during our
hike.
Allen R
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tripledigitken
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bufeo
Excellent photos, Ken. We haven't been to that site since 1967. Glad to see that they are still in such good shape. The trail looks well-worn, so
there must be substantial traffic to view them. As I remember we were viciously attacked by those aggressive, man-eating, leaping chollas during our
hike.
Allen R |
Allen,
Thanks for the comment. Good eye re the trail. Yes, it is obvious from the trail and the parking area that this site does get regular visitors. The
murals are in very good condition, we didn't see any defacing at the site.
Ken
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Osprey
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Ken, since Crosby and other investigators visited those sites and rudimentary age dating was done, there has been much more in-depth study. That first
600 year old figure was from a piece of wood stuck in a cliffside hole.
Now, some pigment samples have shown some of the paintings to be as old as 7,500 years. There are several sites (some around Chapala) without
paintings that have been age dated for human occupation (visitation) for 10,000 years.
The Yumans like Cochimis, Guaycura, etc. only had the run of the place over the last few hundred years. Not likely they were the painters because if
they were Great Basin walk-downs one would think they would have left evidence of the painting rituals elsewhere. It would also call into question the
over-arching motif of sea creatures to all other characters.
[Edited on 3-24-2013 by Osprey]
[Edited on 3-25-2013 by Osprey]
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tripledigitken
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Osprey,
As old as 7500 years makes them all the more special that they have survived. It also makes them unique compared to the vast paintings remaining
throughout the 4 corners which, last time I checked, were believed to have originated back to 1000-1400 AD. In the case of Chaco Canyon it is
theorized that it was a trading hub that extended south well into Mexico, as they have found artifacts which are that age and are of Mexican origin.
I have been to close to a 100 sites in the 4 corners and the oldest, as stated at the sites, was around 1000 AD.
I'm not an Anthropologist so I better stop here.
Thanks for the info.
Ken
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monoloco
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Does anyone know what they used for pigment?
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David K
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The site was missed by Crosby but was one of the top sites listed over 100 years ago. Thanks for posting Ken, your photography is much finer than
mine. Hope you are spared the wrath I was served for posting them! LOL 
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BajaBlanca
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absolutely fabulous photos -thanks so much for sharing.
when we went to the village next to CUEVA DEL RATON, one of the villagers had a painted rock that imitated the painting in the Cueva. The colors are
from plants, is what he told us. I gave the rock away, but the color is an exact replica of the red one sees in the caves.
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Osprey
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Monoloco: several field study papers on the cave paintings point to evidence that the pigments used were ground minerals from rocks (Hematite) mixed
with water, urine and sap from cactus. They have used more than a dozen systems of age dating (some overlapping to bolster results of others). The
oldest tested to 7,500 YBP at the San Borjitas cave.
Don't know what the future finds will hold but I think the paint places were places of worship visited by ancient pilgrims who only camped there. So
if I'm right, one would expect to find the things usual to a campground: toilet middens, kitchen middens, campfire evidence, things they ate and used
on their visits before they went home. Very intriguing stuff because the cave figures were painted at different times; 7,500, 3,000, 2,000, YBP, etc
so similar style artists painted over the work of their forbears with 1000s of years in between. I just can't see any group of people able to survive
continuously in that very hostile environment for thousands of years -- I think the painters were from Japan and came here quite often in large groups
putting ashore all along the coast and spending lots of time in Vizciano.
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David K
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Also, it was a cooler, wetter period, closer to the last Ice Age, when the land bridge allowed the Asians to walk to Alaska and then south.
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Monoloco: several field study papers on the cave paintings point to evidence that the pigments used were ground minerals from rocks (Hematite) mixed
with water, urine and sap from cactus. They have used more than a dozen systems of age dating (some overlapping to bolster results of others). The
oldest tested to 7,500 YBP at the San Borjitas cave.
Don't know what the future finds will hold but I think the paint places were places of worship visited by ancient pilgrims who only camped there. So
if I'm right, one would expect to find the things usual to a campground: toilet middens, kitchen middens, campfire evidence, things they ate and used
on their visits before they went home. Very intriguing stuff because the cave figures were painted at different times; 7,500, 3,000, 2,000, YBP, etc
so similar style artists painted over the work of their forbears with 1000s of years in between. I just can't see any group of people able to survive
continuously in that very hostile environment for thousands of years -- I think the painters were from Japan and came here quite often in large groups
putting ashore all along the coast and spending lots of time in Vizciano. |
Thanks Osprey, Interesting theory
about the Japan connection, I believe that it's highly unlikely, given the many ancient seafaring cultures that existed in the Pacific rim and oceana,
that north America wasn't visited and populated by many different groups at various times.
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Osprey
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David, you and I will disagree on that ancient weather thing until or unless we both find new and better evidence. On my end I have Desert Varnish --
takes about 10,000 years for rocks to varnish with bacteria. That bacteria CANNOT compete with lichens so a very wet central Baja that long ago makes
no sense -- the carvings are all in the varnish.
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BajaBlanca
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fascinating.
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David K
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I never said 'very wet', just wetter/ cooler than recent times... I mean that's what the global warming crowd even says,... Since we began warming
long before there were fossil fuels burned or aerosol sprays, the cause wasn't from man. More animals to hunt and more pitayas to pick, it would seem?
Desert varnish can form in just several hundred years, I thought? We see it on walls at Las Animas... unless those are thousands of years old and not
from Jesuit times?
Here are nice papers on Desert Varnish... Seems that it can only happen in semi-arid areas, not too wet nor not too dry!:
http://ismanual.voices.wooster.edu/files/2012/12/Meredith.pd...
http://www.geo.arizona.edu/palynology/geos462/14rockvarnish....
[Edited on 3-25-2013 by David K]
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Osprey
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David, looks like you and I have now, maybe forever, absolutely nothing to agree upon. Wet, wetter, wettest? That the best you got?
That region now receives about 3.5 inches of WETNESS. Now paint me a 7,000 year old rainforest in the San Franciscos, back it up and we can talk.
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David K
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I am sorry, but I am not trying to be argumentative at all... Just seeking the truth... Can we just discuss the findings?
Are you saying that climate is static, that it wasn't cooler and wetter in central Baja thousands of years ago?
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Ken, since Crosby and other investigators visited those sites and rudimentary age dating was done, there has been much more in-depth study. That first
600 year old figure was from a piece of wood stuck in a cliffside hole.
Now, some pigment samples have shown some of the paintings to be as old as 7,500 years. There are several sites (some around Chapala) without
paintings that have been age dated for human occupation (visitation) for 10,000 years.
The Yumans like Cochimis, Guaycura, etc. only had the run of the place over the last few hundred years. Not likely they were the painters because if
they were Great Basin walk-downs one would think they would have left evidence of the painting rituals elsewhere. It would also call into question the
over-arching motif of sea creatures to all other characters.
[Edited on 3-24-2013 by Osprey]
[Edited on 3-25-2013 by Osprey] |
i thought paintings were no older than about 2,000 years old, but am interested to read about older dating...
do you have citations for any recent studies that might summarize other age dating throughout penninsula?
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