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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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Residente Permanente and Driving a US registered/plated vehicle
Picked up my Residente Permanente card in La Paz yesterday and talked to the people there about a Residente Permannte holder's permissibility to drive
an owned US registered/plated vehicle in La Paz. None of INM people knew about any controversy and they responded emphatically that it was absolutely
positively OK for a Residente Permanente to drive his US registered/plated vehicle in La Paz with impunity.
There happened to be two attorneys in the office that were there in their capacity to assist clients in obtaining visas. The older attorney was
emphatic that it was OK for an RP to drive his US vehicle in LA Paz. The younger attorney was equally emphatic that it was OK. He further stated,
emphatically, that because the Baja was all Free Zone territory, that any laws that prohibit an RP from driving his US owned and registered/plated
vehicle in Mexico absolutely and positively did not apply to any part of the Baja because it is all Free Zone territory.
Then I showed the two attorneys a copy of a letter on SHCP-SAT-Aduana letterhead that was a response to an RP request of is options on
renewing/obtaining a TIP on his US registered/plated Dodge so that he could drive it in Mexico. The letter, in no uncertain terms, told him that he
could not get a TIP with the implication being that he is not allowed to drive such a vehicle in Mexico.
The logic of the letter emphasizes that TIPs are related to that "regime" of Mexican law that relates to temporary residents in Mexico and the
corresponding temporary permissions given to such temporary residents. Temporary permissions are not provided for in that "regimen" of Mexican law
that relates to "PERMANENT" residents.
The implication is that TIPs are limited to Temporary visitors and not to permanent residents and whether or not you, as an RP, are in a Free
Zone/Prohibited territory is irrelevant. The only relevancy regarding the Free Zone is for temporary residents. If you are a temporary resident in
the interior of the mainland Mexico, then you can get a TIP. If you are a temporary resident in the Baja Free Zone, you don't need a permit.
After reading the letter, the personnel at the INM in La Paz and the two attorneys kind of became mute and I could see the "pause" in their demeanor.
I am corresponding with the younger attorney and he said that his going to look into the matter and contact the relevant authorities to get further
input. The older attorney had attitude, was rather intolerant/impatient, short talking, didactic and feigned an air of authority...all
characteristics of someone who tries to bully his position instead of researching and instead of remaining open to new information.
[Edited on 7-13-2013 by MitchMan]
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monoloco
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Location: Pescadero BCS
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I am not going to worry about it until I hear of people being harassed about it. If the lawyers and INM can't figure out the rules, how would anyone
expect the average gringo to? It just seems like a solution looking for a problem at this point, other than at INM and airports, I have never had
anyone ask us for immigration docs in over 30 years of Baja travel and living.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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norte
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May I ask Mr Mitch why you are pressing this even after they said no problem?.....to the uninformed seems as though you want your letter recognized to
be the law. Not something I would think most expaats would desire.
edited for spelling
[Edited on 7-13-2013 by norte]
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MitchMan
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My issue is to definitively ascertain what is actually legal and what is not. The best info I have is what I posted. I have a stake in this. As I
wrote, I just got my Residente Permanente yesterday. I have a Tacoma that has US Plates and I have two boat that have US plates on the trailers and
one of the boats s longer than 4.5 meters and required a TIP to be used by me on the water here in Baja.
NOw with the RP status, I am trying to discern the law and whether or not I can legally drive my truck and pull my boats here in Baja. MY
interpretation of things so far is that it is illegal for me to drive my truck and to pull and to use my boats here in Baja.
Obviously, I want to be able to drive my truck and pull my boats in Baja, but I absolutely need to know my actual legal ability to do so. If I can't,
I have two general options: 1)change my status to Residente Temporal and continue to use my vehicle and my boats here without any more hassle and
money, or 2) incur the time and energy and thousands of dollars to nationalize my truck and boats. But, in order to do anything, I need to know the
actual law.
That's how I view it. If others take the position that there is no problem if they don't hear of any confiscations and are quite happy and contented
to not know the actual law in this matter, fine. I do not argue with your choices. But for me, a starting point is to know the actual applicable
law, and secondarily to know what is ultimately and reliably going to be the application of the law in Baja.
So, norte, I am not advocating a position other than to intelligently ascertain the on point legality of what is transpiring. If you think \that I am
advocating something, that is your inference. I am hoping that I can keep my RP status and drive my US plated truck and pull and use my US registered
boats while in Baja, but, so far, based on the best info that I have come across, it doesn't look like it. This is not being adversarial, this is
being objective.
If anyone has hard evidence or current documented evidence to the contrary, please submit.
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Mula
Super Nomad
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Location: San Nicolas y Lopez Mateos
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At this point, I don't think even the Mexican Law Makers know what is what on this issue.
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bajagrouper
Senior Nomad
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Location: Rincon de Guayabitos, Nayarit, Mexico
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Mood: happy and retired
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TIP= temporary import permit, it is for tourists entering Mexico on a FMM or visitors permit.
Here in the Puerto Vallarta area Federal Police are checking ex-pats and if they do not have a special letter/permit from customs allowing them 5 days
to return the car to the border the federalies are confiscating cars...
I hear the whales song
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mula
At this point, I don't think even the Mexican Law Makers know what is what on this issue. |
Or many others, for that matter. It remains a "decision for sale" system.
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
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bajagrouper,
It is my understanding that a TIP on a US plated/registered vehicle owned by holders of FMM, Inmigrante, No-Inmigrante, FM3, FM2, and Residente
Temporal visas will enable such visa holders to drive their said vehicles in Prohibited, Free Zone Mexican territory WHICH INCLUDES PUERTO VALLARTA.
Based on the foregoing, it appears that the only confiscations that may be legal police procedure should be limited to those vehicles that are US
registered/plated vehicles owned and driven in Puerto Vallarta by Residente Permanente holders or full on Mexican citizens driving such a US
registered/plated vehicle. bajagrouper, is this the case? You mentioned that confiscations are occurring in Puerto Vallarta, but you did not define
the specific visas that have been the victim of such confiscations. Specifics are crucial.
Thanks in advance, bajagrouper, for any additional light you can provide on the matter.
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Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3528
Registered: 8-27-2003
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MM: keep drilling down, I'm very curious on what you find.
How about this:
Husband has an RP and wife a FMM.
Sedan title has both names but their truck is owned by a Calif Corp which in turn is owned jointly by them both.
Based on what you know, what would you advise them to drive?
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
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Registered: 3-9-2009
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Santiago,
How is it that the title has both their names on it but that the corporation owns it? Are you saying that all three own the sedan in some kind of
co-tenancy ownership?
I have a similar situation in that my wife and I are co-owners of our US registered/plated truck that is in La Paz. I have RP status and she holds an
FMM. One nomad wrote that the FMM holder can definitely drive the vehicle in Baja and the RP holder can drive it while the FMM holder is in the
Passenger seat and then went on to say that the RP holder can drive the vehicle while driving alone so long as the RP driver has a written permission
to do so signed by the FMM holder/co-owner.
The only thing I am confident of is that my wife, the FMM holder, can drive our truck in Baja. I am not absolutely sure that I can drive it under
any circumstances. So, currently, my wife is doing all the driving right now in La Paz.
There are other issues, namely the insurance coverage. I got an annual Qualitas policy through Lewis and Lewis in May 2013 while I was a holder of a
No-Inmigrante visa. I called Lewis and Lewis last week to ask if I am covered under the policy with my new RP status and whether or not the policy
would be in force if my wife was driving the vehicle. The Lewis and Lewis agent said that my policy was in force because I was not a citizen of
Mexico. From her determination, she used the litmus test of whether or not I was a full on Mexican citizen or not. Since the RP status is not
Mexican citizenship, then she said I was a tourist/visitor as far as Qualitas's policy coverage was concerned and since my Qualitas policy was for a
tourist as opposed to a policy for a Mexican citizen, I was covered as an RP holder with the policy that I obtained in May.
I do not feel comfortable with the Lewis and Lewis litmus test. I do not have confidence that I am covered while I am driving the vehicle. In fact,
if the vehicle is stolen, I feel that the insurance company will do everything it can to weasel out of covering the truck by relying on the fact that
I am a "permanent" inmigrado and not a temporary tourist. I do not know that as a fact, but I do know that insurance companies will do what ever they
can to get out of paying a claim if they can. That goes for all types of insurances. I once took a law class taught by a real estate oriented Judge
in Orange County, CA. He said that title insurance policies were so long and hard to read because they were loaded with exceptions to coverage.
With regard to whether or not said policy is in force while my wife drives, the agent said yes and referred me to page 2 of the policy where it states
the any driver that has my permission to drive my covered truck is covered by the policy. So, I do feel confident that the policy provides its
coverage when my wife drives our truck.
Man, this is a freakin' nightmare.
I am leaving in a couple of weeks, but I will be back in La Paz in October. I plan on renting a car for that trip. I am stalling on my surrendering
my RP status in order to get Residente Temporal status because I am waiting to get more reliable feed back on these issues. But, the more I
deliberate, I keep coming back to getting Residente Temporal as the solution...but I will hold off a bit more.
I am not any attorney, but I don't have much confidence in what the Lewis and Lewis agent said.
[Edited on 7-14-2013 by MitchMan]
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6082
Registered: 2-20-2012
Location: Kansas Prairies
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Gets more complicated all the time....
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
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Location: Baja California Sur
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Mitchman, I am surprised that someone who is such a stickler for detail would end up in a country like Mexico which is not, nor has ever been known
for being detailed about any facet of life. Look at the pages of what went on and all of the interpretations concerning Residente Permanente
applications and rules. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to get one government agency, namely immigration, to concur and agree on a new law
that was put in to place. Now you expect that the Aduana office is going to understand all of the nuances of Residente Permanente and adjust car
issue. I am sure you can go all the way to Mexico City and not get any clearer than you are now.
In my research, I come pretty much to the same conclusion that Lewis and Lewis has shared, that if you get citizenship, the issue is clear, but not
so much with the New Residente Permanente.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6700
Registered: 9-5-2003
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Sometimes people will not give up until they get the answer they are looking for.
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chuckie
Elite Nomad
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Often true....
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
Sometimes people will not give up until they get the answer they are looking for. |
Tell 'em what they want to hear, Ralph.....whatever it is. It's the merciful thing to do. 
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bajagrouper
Senior Nomad
Posts: 964
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rincon de Guayabitos, Nayarit, Mexico
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Mood: happy and retired
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
bajagrouper,
It is my understanding that a TIP on a US plated/registered vehicle owned by holders of FMM, Inmigrante, No-Inmigrante, FM3, FM2, and Residente
Temporal visas will enable such visa holders to drive their said vehicles in Prohibited, Free Zone Mexican territory WHICH INCLUDES PUERTO VALLARTA.
Based on the foregoing, it appears that the only confiscations that may be legal police procedure should be limited to those vehicles that are US
registered/plated vehicles owned and driven in Puerto Vallarta by Residente Permanente holders or full on Mexican citizens driving such a US
registered/plated vehicle. bajagrouper, is this the case? You mentioned that confiscations are occurring in Puerto Vallarta, but you did not define
the specific visas that have been the victim of such confiscations. Specifics are crucial.
Thanks in advance, bajagrouper, for any additional light you can provide on the matter. |
Sorry, I miss read the article, the federales were confiscating cars with "EXPIRED TIP's"...
I hear the whales song
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CortezBlue
Super Nomad
Posts: 2213
Registered: 11-14-2006
Location: Fenix/San Phelipe
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If you received the same letter I did and if you look carefully, it refers to Permanent and Non Permanent card holders. Mine says nothing about car
plates or registration of my vehicle.
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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I think that most of you guys have more experience in Baja than I do. Given what is known at this time, what do you guys recommend? In view of your
comments, I am open to your take on this.
If you were/are in La Paz today and you have Residente Permanente status today and you only own a US registered/plated 15 year old 4x4 Tacoma blue
book valued at $6,500 USD with a Qualitas annual policy first written when you had the Inmigrante status two months ago, and you have a boat and
trailer both of which are registered in the USA with a California license plate on the trailer, what would you guys do? All things considered, would
YOU drive the car in La Paz or anywhere in the Baja today? Would you pull the boat and trailer with it today?
While there are some unchartered waters, figuratively speaking, with regard to this issue, there is no substitute, in most things, for solid
experience, experience that you guys may have.
Honestly, and sincerely, and specifically, what would you guys do, bottom line? I'm not asking you to tell me what to do, nor am I asking you for
legal advice, just your honest and sincere opinion as to what you would do today in La Paz in the situation described above? Pescador? rts551?
bajagrouper? Dennis? Cortezblue? I've always believed that there is strength in numbers.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
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Immigrado for 8 years and never have worried about my cars, boat, quads or trailer. Stopped once in La Paz by Federal Police for registration check
on the quads and trailer. No problem. In general I don't think that immigration is an issue in Baja and Baja Sur although some day that may change
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CortezBlue
Super Nomad
Posts: 2213
Registered: 11-14-2006
Location: Fenix/San Phelipe
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I am assuming that the car will be in Mexico permanently?
If that is the case, I would register your vehicle in South Dakota www.claycountysd.org
I would plead ignorance, if that doesn't work there is always modida!!
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