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gonetobaja
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Fishing and Spearfishing trip report Nov 2013
Hola Nomads.
Here is a link for some reading on a trip i just finished in baja.
http://spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=168016
tight lines and shoot straight.
Dale
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Skipjack Joe
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Those are 18 year old groupers you are spearing:
http://www.iucnredlist.org/attachments/1038
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gonetobaja
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Ive been diving in front of my house for 20 years. Ive been shooting them this size this entire time. I see more now than ever before. Are you
implying that I and other people should not eat leopard grouper?
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gonetobaja
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How old do you think this one is..... 
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Russ
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I'm all for free divers, if that's how they're still called. And all divers that shoot photos are good too. I don't worry about nice fish speared.
What does concern me is the inshore netters that clean a rock in one fell swoop. They kill everything. That's just sick and there is nothing being
done about it. At least in my area. Here's this mornings rapers
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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David K
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San Bruno Co-Op boat, eh?
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Russ
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Oh BTW that was a really great report
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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David K
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Great photos Dale... looks like you guys had a good time...!
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msteve1014
Senior Nomad
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Nice report, looks like you guys had a great time.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gonetobaja
Ive been diving in front of my house for 20 years. Ive been shooting them this size this entire time. I see more now than ever before. Are you
implying that I and other people should not eat leopard grouper?
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You must be from the Skeet school of thought.
Don't worry about that others are not doing their part. You do your part.
A 12" leopard grouper tastes just as good as a 32" grouper and is much better for their survival. Don't give me that BS about going hungry.
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DaliDali
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Cabrilla=Leopard Grouper=Cabrilla.
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gonetobaja
Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by gonetobaja
Ive been diving in front of my house for 20 years. Ive been shooting them this size this entire time. I see more now than ever before. Are you
implying that I and other people should not eat leopard grouper?
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You must be from the Skeet school of thought.
Don't worry about that others are not doing their part. You do your part.
A 12" leopard grouper tastes just as good as a 32" grouper and is much better for their survival. Don't give me that BS about going hungry.
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Im from reality. I am the one that dives and is in the water down here ALL THE TIME. Im the person that gets the contracts to do fish counts for
SAGARPA. Im the person that gets the contracts to clean up old nets and poacher debris from CONANP. Im the guy that they collect fish heads from to
find out how old stuff is cause the "researchers" cant find the fish. I know how many fish are down there because i can see them. I read the link in
order to understand what you were talking about. All I saw as far as their research was that they went diving once a year in a few spots in Loreto.
Claiming that Loreto is the only place that they spawn and aggregations are only 30 fish. Thats the lamest research Ive ever heard of. Those
research techniques are a joke. Ive seen spawning aggregations of HUNDREDS of fish. Gulf and Leopard grouper. In multiple spots. Year after year.
That link states that the grouper population has fallen by 50% starting in 2001. That is simply not the case. Ive dove with them freediving, on a
rebreather, and on SCUBA. They bolt at SCUBA bubbles and thats probably the most inaccurate way to survey them.
Also the link states that they are a commercial fish. Thats rubbish. I know hundreds of fishermen and NONE of them target Cabrilla. Netting them is
next to impossible and they are only netted as a bycatch. Setting a net in a grouper habitat is a sure way to get your gear in the rocks and loose
your set. Then I get called by the govt to come pull the leftovers. All commercial fishermen I know of target pelagic fish.
Yellowtail
Bonita
Sierra.
White Sea Bass
etc.
Long lines for sharks, dorado, and snappers.
Trawlers for shrimp, halibut,and rays.
dont know a single commercial person who targets Grouper. The only way to get grouper commercialy is to illegally harvest them at night with a
speargun on a hooka rig.
As a professional guide licensed in Mexico with full insurance, port captain registration, and permits I can assure you that I preach conservation,
have a one fish per trip limit on Gulf grouper, a no take policy on Golden Grouper and a strict 5 fish per day limit per customer. I can fully
appreciate your thoughts on conservation. So I guess my point is that I feel that Im trying to do my part. And so if ya dont know now ya know....
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gonetobaja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Russ
Oh BTW that was a really great report |
Thanks!! I hear ya on those inshore net guys
As part of our cleanup work with CONANP we find lots of discarded nets still deployed or half sunk on the bottom, full of dead stuff. I see them in
tight to the islands where they are not supposed to be all the time.
It sucks.
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DJL
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Thanks for the report , REALLY great photos !!
D.~
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gonetobaja
As a professional guide licensed in Mexico with full insurance, port captain registration, and permits I can assure you that I preach conservation,
have a one fish per trip limit on Gulf grouper, a no take policy on Golden Grouper and a strict 5 fish per day limit per customer. I can fully
appreciate your thoughts on conservation. So I guess my point is that I feel that Im trying to do my part. And so if ya dont know now ya know....
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Mr gonetobaja,
Your permits, registrations, and insurance have little to do with conservation. The Cortez fish populations are dwindling despite Mexican fish bag
limits. It's up to us to police ourselves. Gulf groupers should be left untouched. A Gold Grouper is just a phase in the life cycle of a Leopard
Grouper so I don't understand your exception of this fish (must be the color. Like our Garibaldi).
And to dismiss the studies by UC Davis while promoting your own observations. Well, that just leaves me scratching my head. But I have now come across
several nomads who don't really trust anything other than their own past.
I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of spearfishing and I'm never very friendly with them when I encounter them in my travels. Their sport is
deadly and they have little or no sense of conservation. They pursue the very individuals that are the most important and valuable to a fishery - old,
large females. The ones that contribute the most offspring to a population and the ones that are the most capable of rearing their young. So how can
you with a straight face call yourself a conservationist? In the 40 years of baja travel I only once met a group of fishermen that were truly spearing
for food and had the will power to stop when they got their day's supply. Whenever I open a spearman's ice chest I always find enormous grouper type
fish stacked one on top of the other. It's not about food - it's about spearing 'trophies'.
The reason you keep spearing and the numbers haven't gone down is because there are not enough of you to go around. But the paved highway will change
that.
Unlike fishing with a hook and line the fish is not given an option of refusing a bait or swimming away. Once the target is chosen it's only escape is
to hide. There is no catch and release with spearguns.
Here is a historical analogy:
There was a time in Africa when a man could shoot elephants for ivory and feel good about himself. That's because there were only 5 professional
hunters for the entire continent. When the herds started to dwindle the sportsman blamed native poachers for their demise not themselves. The natives,
themselves, felt that they were the rightful owners of their land who could hunt with impunity as did their ancestors and resented the whites with
their guns. Now all game are in parks and hunting is managed by those eggheads you despise, Mr gonetobaja. The one's that went to college. The ones
that keep the herds viable. And that's the future of baja as well. May it come soon because the old baja is gone, it's history.
[Edited on 11-13-2013 by Skipjack Joe]
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gonetobaja
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Joe,
First off I can tell your a man of reason and measured response. I appreciate you not jumping to too many conclusions and name calling. Its a
refreshing thing to see.
I would like to disagree with your analogy. Although eloquent it does not apply IMO. Elephant hunters and other hunters of animals that take them
for the sole reason of a body part, head, paw, or tooth, that have no interest in the consumption of the animal are not in the category of hunter that
I am in. I have no trophies in my house, and eat every bite of every fish that I harvest.
The habitat that we are discussing is the ocean. Its not privately held, and is regulated by the Govt of Mexico. In order to conserve fish stocks,
Spearfishing is allowed in Mexico only while breath hold diving, and only with rubber band powered guns. In addition, the legal take for a spearo is
half of a hook and like fisherman. Yes its true, while a normal rod an reel sportsman can have 10 fish per day, myself and my customers are only
allowed 5. Also a spearfishing is the only method of harvest that provides no by catch or other harmful effects to the environment. There will be no
sea lions with TADY 45s in their mouth, their will be no Seabirds with plugs in their face, no other species of fish will be affected during the
harvest. I wont accidentally gut hook the wrong fish, or snap off my hook and leave 15 ft of 80lb clear mono dangling over the reef. A spearo has
the ability to locate a certain species of fish, at a certain size, make a clear decision that the fish they see is the one they want to harvest and
then take it. Of course that is if you are lucky enough to be able to sneak up on one, because things have been trying to eat it alive from the time
it was a little fish egg. Me with my fins on is a large and bulky scary thing that makes fish scatter. I spook about 20 for every one I get. Im
lucky to get 3 when I go out.
Relating to grouper taking care of their young, Ive never heard of that. Spawning aggregations that I have personally witnessed are not spawning
beds. The breeding happens in the open water well off the bottom, and the fertilized eggs are left to drift in the current, with the hatched fish fry
to fend for themselves. I see grouper from 4 inches to 50 lbs all the time and have never witnessed a grouper of any sex taking care of its young.
This observation is only for the Gulf of California grouper population. I dont have the experience in other places to make an overall assumption.
With the eggs and sperm of hundreds of grouper in a spawning aggregation all mixed up and in a current I find it very hard to imagine how a female
grouper could locate, identify and collect her eggs, and or young and provide them with any rearing protection.
The UC red list science is good in some areas. Fish age, Length, Age that they are reproductive, all good science based on solid scientific theory
and analysis. Constants that can be measured. The fish count however is a joke. A person, any person, comes down to an area once per year and trys
to determine how many fish are there? Its like telling how many birds are in your area by coming to a couple of sections of one park, once a year,
and looking at birds for an hour or so. Then using that numeric input for extrapolation on the entire state of CA. Its just not accurate or
representative of the entire population. The representative sampling of the population is flawed due to the lack of diversity in location sampling.
I think science is great, when its done properly. And it is Science and breeding programs that can bring back a species that has been poached almost
to extinction. The Totuaba breeding program at the University of Ensenada is a great example of that.
On the issue of Poaching as not being a reason for the dwindling of species, again the location, habitat and ultimate control is different. The issue
is the same however. In our area the Totuaba is being poached at an alarming rate. A boat that is out netting up Totuaba because they can get
thousands of dollars each is much like an Elephant poacher killing off a herd of elephants in order to sell the truck load of tusks for thousands of
dollars. So poaching is a direct cause of widespread reduction in certain types of animals that are desired by the black market trade.
As far as not being a conservationist, I would like to submit to you this photo of a poached Totuaba that I recovered during a recent operation with
the Mexican Parks Branch CONANP. It still has the rock in its mouth used to sink the body and hide the evidence.
These are the stray drift nets that were found on the bottom and the interstitial tidal areas during amphibious, and sub surface patrols that I
conducted.
I am not involved in enforcement in any way, I am only operating in this capacity in order to clean up the environment in which I make a living.
Among the things I also remove are old lures and tangled bunches of mono thrown into the water. I find plenty of dead birds with fishing hooks in
their face. Its with that information that I feel that your assumption that hook and line fishing is somehow more sporting and less harmful to the
environment than legal spearfishing to be incorrect.
Poachers are not much for cleaning up their mess, old nets get thrown over the side, broken fuel containers are left on islands or dumped into coves.
Much of our cleanup work, although supervised by Govt observers at all times, is voluntary.
Im actually doing something about helping the environment in my area. The fact that Im a licensed, insured, and registered operation that is working
directly to remove hazardous items in the form of old nets and poaching debris left behind, proves that not only do I follow the law to the letter, I
am a conservationist as well.
The bag limits are there for a reason. The limits in Mexico are more conservative than the USA. Its the poaching actions such as turtle nets,
totuaba poaching, and inshore nets, as well as over take of animals commercially that cause the long term demise of the species. Not the recreational
spearo or fisherman.
The pressure on endangered species comes from overseas, it is those black markets that drive the price and thus the motivation for people to take
animals that are endangered or threatened.
Leopard Grouper, and Gulf grouper are not in that category IMO. But more importantly, its also the opinion of the Mexican Govt who regulates the
fishery. As far as the golden grouper, I have no idea why it turns that color, it may have something to do with spawning, or feeding or maybe not.
But because I dont know why they turn that color and therefore what damage I may cause by taking one, I dont harvest them. I leave them to the
population to serve whatever purpose they are there for. For a person to discount the natural color change as nothing, with no evidence to support it
and then harvest it, is not a responsible way to manage your fishery. There are plenty of grouper in the Gulf of California, no reason to harvest one
that may play some role in the overall welfare of the species I like to harvest.
The new paved road has done nothing to increase tourism and fishermen. We still have the same amount of trouble getting customers as when the road
was dirt. It does however make it easier for PROFEPA to get here and do patrols as well as offering easier access for military units that are now all
over. Before it was easy to poach the area because it was so remote, now its harder.
Tonight for dinner Im gonna have some grouper. Because unlike an elephant that ends up a bloody corpse with its tusks hacked off, left to rot in the
sun....my hunting ends up looking like this.
Crab and cream cheese stuffed grouper wrapped in bacon, with alfredo sauce, wild mushroom ravioli and sauteed asparagus paired with a nice
chardonay....
Cmon Joe, you know that looks good.....
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captkw
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3850
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Fish
As a guy that has spent his life on/in (I dive) the water I agree with gotobaja !! these marine Biologist and their studys are F-ing joke...no one is
more concernd about THEN THE MEN AND WOMEN THAT USE /oops!! the oceans.. IMO we are the ones that see what the real story is >> A sport
fishing person taking a fish here or there is not the reason the fishing is going to hell....the undiscrimating nets,,over fishing the breeders,, and
pollution are the known reasons..and nets don't stop killing..when discarded,,torn loose from bad fishing or storms,, they just keep killing and
killing.... in 1991 I trolled from cabo to Alaska and would have to clean my line many times a day for parts of nets on my lure..thank you for your
help.."gotobaja" we need more fishing folks like you !! PS..I have found that the fish "cabrilla" is used for so many different fish that's its funny
and my first speard fish was a Garibaldi" off dana point with my brother and he freaked when I was holding up proudly....OooopS! (Protected) I didn't
know at that age !!
[Edited on 11-13-2013 by captkw]
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gonetobaja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
As a guy that has spent his life on/in (I dive) the water I agree with gotobaja !! these marine Biologist and their studys are F-ing joke...no one is
more concernd about THEN THE MEN AND WOMEN THAT USE /oops!! the oceans.. IMO we are the ones that see what the real story is >> A sport
fishing person taking a fish here or there is not the reason the fishing is going to hell....the undiscrimating nets,,over fishing the breeders,, and
pollution are the known reasons..and nets don't stop killing..when discarded,,torn loose from bad fishing or storms,, they just keep killing and
killing.... in 1991 I trolled from cabo to Alaska and would have to clean my line many times a day for parts of nets on my lure..thank you for your
help.."gotobaja" we need more fishing folks like you !! |
Thank you Capt. 
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gonetobaja
How old do you think this one is.....
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Wow, that's a beauty.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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gonetobaja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
| Quote: | Originally posted by gonetobaja
How old do you think this one is.....
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Wow, that's a beauty. |
Gracias Monoloco...I have to admit its the biggest one Ive ever harvested. All others were under 20kilos. These big guys seem always to be too deep
for me to get to, and landing one while freediving can be.....well.....kinda hard. You dont even really see them above 80 ft for most of the year.
Winter when it starts to get cold is when they can get up shallow every now and then.
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