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burro bob
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Posts: 264
Registered: 3-15-2004
Location: Poblado del Ejido Plan National Agrario
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Intelectual Property, a question for the pros.
I'm not sure how many of the photographers/videographers out there consider themselves to be pros " Do you ever sell any shots?". I know La Tijereta
said he was shootiing for a couple of mags, so I know at least he is.
I film for ARTTV (Martin Romo at Rice & Beans in San Felipe). When he was in Ensenada for the Baja 1000, he was given an official letter from SCORE
that basically said he could no longer make any videos of SCORE races. It said that in the future if he wanted to make any more race videos of SCORE
races he would either have to pay a fee to film or pay to use their "official footage".
I can understand how we could be excluded from filming contingency, and start and finish areas as these are places that SCORE leases the rights to
use. What I don't understand is how can they keep us from filming along the course. Does SCORE's intelectual property rights extend to any images or
sounds involving SCORE race vehicles anywhere along the course? Acording to their letter it does.
We have just started to formulate a reply to their letter and are looking for any others that might have received similar notices from SCORE. So far
the only other race video producer we have been able to get in touch with, 4-Days, says they haven't received any notice.
We are not sure if they are just starting this policy, and we are the first to get the news, or if we are being targeted.
To all the non pros out there, none of this pertains to you unless you try to sell your images. If filming for your oun use then there is no conflict.
It looks like Sal doesn't think he needs the little people anymore. We are the only race videographers that cover the bikes and quads in SCORE races.
Might be a good time to invite everyone to the CODE "Race-Ready" 275, on Dec. 10, 11, 12 between Ensenada and San Felipe.
burro bob
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Tio Rocky
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Posts: 176
Registered: 6-30-2004
Location: La Paz
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Don?t quote me
Don?t quote me but it is my understanding that Score ?rents? most of the course from the land owners (that?s why the future of the race is in
jeopardy, topic for another post)? so therefore they would have the right to control it?.. the other parts of the course are negotiated with public
officials and municipalities.
This is also a sanctioned Score Racing event. Here is a good example?.. if you go to a Nascar race at a track Nascar does not own you would still
require their approval to video tape and air their program even though they don?t own the facility.
I understand your frustration but keep in mind that the Baja 500 / 1000 is getting increasingly difficult to hold each year. There is lots of talk
that if the land owner continue to demand more and more money each year for passage thru their property along with increases in Insurance and
municipal fees we will no longer be enjoying this race. Bottom line?. maybe Score is just trying to make a little money like everyone else.
Tio Rocky
I hate it when I get serious
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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One thing to remember...
you are in Mexico and the laws of Mexico apply. Copyrights and patents are only good in Mexico if they are also registered in Mexico- this is why
you see lots of Guy Harvey knockoffs for one example. My guess is that SCORE will have an issue with you when you attempt to sell your work in the
US.
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Herb
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Posts: 202
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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It is a growing trend everywhere...
The list of things and places that you cannot photograph for professional purposes is growing here in the US, including lots of well known buildings.
There's even a public botanical gardens near my home where you cannot photograph the plants and flowers as a professional without paying a substantial
fee. You also, technically cannot use images of other people for gain, including advertising, without a signed model release. (Of course, there is
some leeway if the person's presence in the photo happens to be incidental, rather than the subject of the photo).
Now my take is that in most cases, it is the artist's/videographer's interpretation and presentation that makes something sellable. I get more
complimentary feedback on a photo that I took of a little 3ft patch of sand near San Quintin than any I have taken of several famous landmarks north
and south of the border.
Of course, with a Score Race, that argument is a little more difficult because it could be said that not many would buy videos of bikes and quads
riding unless they were in the race. But basically, it appears that the law is on their side on this side of the border. There have been some
interesting discussions about this on the boards at dpreview.com if you are interested. Just try doing a search there.
Good Luck!
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burro bob
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Posts: 264
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Location: Poblado del Ejido Plan National Agrario
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Thanks Rocky, Pam and Herb for your take on the matter.
Tio Rocky, I don't think the NASCAR analogy applies except at the locationjs I mentioned in my first post. Sal gets the rights to race on public roads
from public entities. It is important to note here that he doesn't have the right to totally shut down a public road, just the right to race across
it. They still have to follow all the regular highway rules (yeah right). No exclusive rights in this area.
He gets the rights to the true "off-road" parts of the course from the private landowners. I guess it depends on what kind of contract he has with
them.
I understand about the problems/costs of trying to keep the route open. Last year my neighbors in the Ejido "extorted an extra $6,000 at the last
minute to let him race over private sections of 3 different groupos in EJ plan Nal. Agrario, and Ejido Delicias for the SF 250. It was rasied, by the
way, by businesses in San Felipe, Led by Rigeberto Romo of Rositas Restaurant. Sal didn't pay a penny of that extra 6 grand. The merchants of San
Felipe did.
Pam, We know our rights are different between here and in the US, we just don't know what that is.
Herb, I am very suprised to learn that even in a public place a fee must be paid for comercial photographers to shot. I have used dpreview.com many
times for info on cameras. I guess I need to do some rersearch on this topic there also.
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Tio Rocky
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burro bob
Check out the below web site.... they have something to do with the marketing and coverage of these races... may or may not be helpful to your
cause....
http://www.rockonmotorsports.com
Tio Rocky
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burro bob
Nomad
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Tio Rocky
I checked out the site you mentioned but didn't didn't see anything that pertained to me. Rock-On Motorsprots only has the rights to live coverage,
and then I doubt if their rights extend to Mexico where a whole different set of rules apply.
Also I found it interesting to see, when I checked your web site, that you have a picture of mine on you home page. I don't remember ever having given
you permission to use it, but hey this is Baja and there probably isn't anything I can do about it anyway.
burro bob
p.s. It's the shot of the race car advertising the San Felipe 250, You are more than welcome to continue to use it.
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burro bob
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Tio Rocky
Thanks for featuring my fotography so prominently on your web site. The sunrise picture on your San Felipe Page is also mine. It is actually from
Punta Bufeo.
Are any of the photo's on your web site yours or do you just specialize in ripping off other sites?
Both of thse photos were originally posted on "The Net" San Felipe's web site.
Attached is a jpeg of the original tif file.
burro bob
[Edited on 11-26-2004 by burro bob]
[Edited on 11-26-2004 by burro bob]
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burro bob
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Sorry forgot to attach the photo.
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Tio Rocky
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Rip Off?
Mr. Bob,
First,,,, the sunset pic on San Felipe was taken for my ?Interactive? Photo Album?. Meaning someone posted it on my site, which would mean I have the
right to use it?. now, if someone else ripped it off you and posted it on my page, so be it??. it will be removed?.
The pic of the car was taken straight from Scores page?.. I have been plugging their races for eight years now and using their pic?s to do so?.. I
also share links and with Score and have never had a problem with them for advertising their races for free?. If you can prove that is your pic and
not Score?s, I will be happy to remove it and notify them that I can longer promo them without the pic?s?.. your call?.
Lastly?.. the ripping off of peoples work is commonplace on the net?. I have seen ?hundreds? of my pics on other?s sites?.. with that said it is my
policy to do my best to make sure I have permission to use these pic?s prior to posting?. As evidenced by the hundreds of pics I have posted from one
of Baja?s most famous photographers, Jim Cline?.. yes, I have permission to use them?
It would seem a wise man would do a little investigating prior to out right accusing another.
Tio Rocky,
A full-fledged supporter of Baja???
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
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Tio.....
We stole this image from you...
We liked it...
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Tio Rocky
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Posts: 176
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???????
I don't remember where I ripped it off 
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burro bob
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Tio Rocky
Ok here's the original photo of the race car. Martin had showed it to me many months ago on their web site. I basicaly didn't have a problem with
them using it until Martin got the letter. Seems like they are acting pretty hypocritical. By the way I don't think they are using that photo any
longer.
I also don't have a real problem seeing my work on other sites. It is a compliment. It would be nice to get credit now and then. If as you say it was
posted by someone else then there is no way you could know who's it was. Do you ask for original photo's only? If not you might want to change your
policy.
Rip-Off? depends on which side of the fence you are on. Maybe you don't think so but the way I feel right now I do. If your "hundreds" of pics were
used without permission or without credit it is still a rip-off, even if everyone else is doing it.
Bob and Susan, you have a pathetic sence of humor.
burro bob
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burro bob
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Hose A
You are obviously not ************** post a response pertinent to the topic.
Your witisism about life in Baja is very sad.
Possibly it is your own ******** problems that causes you be lied to and riped-off daily.
burro bob
[Edited on 11-29-2004 by BajaNomad]
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Tio Rocky
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Burro bob
Send me the correct credit info to my U2U and I will post it on the pic.....
I already changed the san Felipe pic yesterday....
I have over a 1000 url pages on my site.... I am presently doing a major make over....... when I do the new photo album I will post something about
orginal pics only...
If you would like me to promo some of your work on the new site let me know where i can get the pics and of course an email giving me that right.... I
will post the proper credits back to you.....
Tio Rocky
Baja Events
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LaTijereta
Super Nomad
Posts: 1192
Registered: 8-27-2003
Location: Loreto
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SCORE is trying to get everyone to come under one agreement next season. The fee proposed is trying to cut back on the video tapping that has cropped
up over the last few years. Still images however will come under the same agreement.
I guess Sal's beef is the viewing of these videos, and the lack of "correct" sponsorship credits to the races. SCORE goes out of their way sell off
"official" titles throughout the series. These video productions are not giving the sponsors their due credits, and have SCORE concerend over the long
run.
It is a big desert, and they have tried this before years back. I have had advertising issues in the past over images used, with SCORE trying to tap
into the pie. It gets resolved when the client (BFG or Toyota) has intervened on behalf of the ad agency to run the ad
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burro bob
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Tio Rocky
Thank you very much. I will u2u the info.
LaTijereta'
It's nice to know we arn't being singled out, but not nice to know that others are having problems also.
It wasn't even two years ago that we got the word that we could no longer use The logo, the name, or title of a SCORE race.
Consequently our Baja 1000 video has the catchy title of "Ensenada Mil Miles 2004". We would be more than happy to give the correct title and
sponsorship. We always looked at our videos as being great publicity for SCORE obviously they do not.
What is your take on their claim that they have the right to all intelectual property from the entire course? Do you think those rights are any
different than the rights from a race at a privately owned facility?
It is interesting that you say you have used BFG or Toyota to help you out before. Martin is looking to the racers themselves for support. Hopefully
we can get enough to express their displeasure that they will change their policy.
We appreciate the excitement and income that the SCORE races bring to Baja. I just hope we don't get priced out of being involved.
Thanks for your insights on the topic.
burro bob
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jrbaja
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Posts: 4863
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What a crock of Greedy chit!
I have mixed emotions regarding these races. I enjoy watching them but now that I am seeing this kind of crap from the race officials and sponsors,
it of gives me an idea of what to do with these pictures.
Anybody have any ideas on this blatant disrespect?
I also find it most annoying that people are trying to make money in Baja by pretending experience yet using others photos to portray their b.s.
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burro bob
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Jr
We could make a pretty ugly video if we wanted to. We didn't include any footage of the bottle throwing riot at Ojos Negros jump or the footage of the
trophy trucks passing migrant worker buses and cops on blind corners in our Baja 500 video.
It has been my experience that most of the vandalism amd enviromental damage is from the spectators. Did that car have a race number in the window. If
it did SCORE would take action. I truly believe Sal wants to eliminate this type of behavior at races.
burro bob
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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SCORE may be interested
but I know that PROFEPA would be as well.
I don't particularly have anything against races and I swear by BFG tires but this was a little much.
And now, if there are problems regarding the spectators as well as the pit crews, racers and people that insist on acting like idiots when they are
down here because of these events, I say take it to Death Valley or Yellowstone.
I was with a lot of Mexican people when I shot those photos. They were as disgusted as I was. And, they took out their trash with them.
At least some of us are learning.
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