BajaNomad - Destructive goats in the Sierra

Destructive goats in the Sierra

thebajarunner - 4-10-2009 at 05:41 PM

we trekked up to San Francisco de la Sierra,
one of the really stunning beauties of all Baja.

Near the top there is a rancho, that has a very large herd of goats, as well as a number of cattle.

Due to some car problems we camped fairly near to the rancho for the night and observed, first-hand, the incredible destructive manner in which the goats are gobbling up all of the vegetation.

It actually was fascinating to watch a goat mouth a large prickly cactus, waller it around for a few minutes, then swallow the whole thing,
but a brief walk around the area revealed some really wasted landscape, and healthy trees stripped of all leaves within reach.

Really sad, and I suspect that there is nothing that can (or will) be done to prevent this wasting of a fragile landscape.

CaboRon - 4-10-2009 at 06:37 PM

Are you talking about these people ?

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=29881

thebajarunner - 4-10-2009 at 07:55 PM

No idea,
I have not yet seen the film, although I plan to order one right away.

However, it does not matter how charming, suave, persuasive and comely the owners of these critters might be,
the goats are trashing a lot of lovely environment,
areas that likely will never recover,
and that is sad....

Skip_Mac - 4-11-2009 at 12:58 AM

So Much Baja, for so little time
"However, it does not matter how charming, suave, persuasive and comely the owners of these critters might be,the goats are trashing a lot of lovely environment,areas that likely will never recover,and that is sad.... ".

It might recover, but Not In My Lifetime

CaboRon - 4-11-2009 at 07:14 AM

But , they're soooo cute :bounce:

805gregg - 4-11-2009 at 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
But , they're soooo cute :bounce:

And good to eat.

Turtles are "so cute" too, and great to eat...

thebajarunner - 4-11-2009 at 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
But , they're soooo cute :bounce:

CaboRon - 4-11-2009 at 12:30 PM

The analogy does not work ....

I don't believe goats will ever be extinct :lol:

They will eat anything ....

And they do taste good :bounce:

Actually, the analogy is spot on

thebajarunner - 4-11-2009 at 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
The analogy does not work ....

I don't believe goats will ever be extinct :lol:

They will eat anything ....

And they do taste good :bounce:

I was not worried about the extinction of the goats.
I was worried about the extinction of the flora in the region,
and it will become extinct if their ravaging continues.

and yeah, turtles taste great :bounce:

Cypress - 4-11-2009 at 02:40 PM

thebajarunner, Too many goats, cattle, etc in any area will over-graze and turn it into a barren wasteland. :no:

elizabeth - 4-11-2009 at 03:42 PM

Is there a scientific basis for the belief that the relatively small herds of goats in those mountains are destroying an ecosystem? In some places, animals eating low level branches enhance the environment for lower growing plants that then gain more sunlight. Since the herds will move, do you know how long it takes for the "destroyed" habitat to reestablish itself?

Just curious...most of those ranches don't have enormous herds...and barely eke out a sustenance living.

Paula - 4-11-2009 at 05:07 PM

As long as the ranch population lives on up there the goats will not destroy the sierra. As Elizabeth says, the herds are not large, and for 200 years or so the people, livestock, and flora have co-existed in a healthy and balanced situation. But take away the goats, and the life that is lived there now will cease to be. Generations of ranchers have worked to build tillable soil where once there was none in order to grow fruit trees and vegetable gardens. The women grow beautiful colorful flowers on the ranches, and herbs for teas cooking, and remedies. They care for the land because their lives literally depend on it.

In the winters of 2007 and 2008, the desert along the road up was green, blooming and just plain amazing. And if you ride back in beyond the end of the road, from ranch to ranch, you will find that it seems to go on forever. It is clean. There is no garbage, and the air is clear, even on a windy day. In years when the rainfall is scarce the colors fade, and the plants look small and dry, but they miraculously spring back to life when water comes. There aren't many places like the Sierra de San Francisco, and the unique ranch culture is a large part of what makes it special.

CaboRon - 4-11-2009 at 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
The analogy does not work ....

I don't believe goats will ever be extinct :lol:

They will eat anything ....

And they do taste good :bounce:

Your logic is way off ........... nothing spot on about it....

You are relating turtles which are an indangered species with goats :?:

Also their eating habits have nothing to do with each other, turtles do not destroy habitat by eating too much :lol:

You are spot off :lol:

CaboRon

Mexitron - 4-12-2009 at 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth
Is there a scientific basis for the belief that the relatively small herds of goats in those mountains are destroying an ecosystem? In some places, animals eating low level branches enhance the environment for lower growing plants that then gain more sunlight. Since the herds will move, do you know how long it takes for the "destroyed" habitat to reestablish itself?

Just curious...most of those ranches don't have enormous herds...and barely eke out a sustenance living.

My observation on my trip up there years ago was that the overgrazing was confined to a relatively small area and didn't seem worrisome...folks are so removed from where their food comes from that when they see that there's a price to pay for it to the environment they're shocked. But look at the millions of acres of native grassland in the U.S. that has been transformed into cattle pasture--in California the native bunchgrasses used to cover vast tracts of land but are now mostly European grasses, like oats and rye, which are tolerant to cattle grazing. We really have no place to be advising the Mexicans in the Sierra on damage to the environment.

Skipjack Joe - 4-12-2009 at 06:03 AM

John Muir was apalled at the destruction they brought to the Sierras of California. He called them four footed locusts. It was a major motivation to fight to preserve the sierras.

But, as suggested, the sense of proportion in california was unquestionably much larger than in baja.

David K - 4-12-2009 at 06:53 AM

Just remember...

Nature bats last!

:light:

Cypress - 4-12-2009 at 06:59 AM

Have used goats to thin underbrush and reduce the threat of wildfires.

CaboRon - 4-12-2009 at 08:47 AM

There are a couple of herds in Orange County that are regularly hired to clear brush ......

David K - 4-12-2009 at 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Jorge

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
for 200 years or so the people, livestock, and flora have co-existed in a healthy and balanced situation.

I have no doubt the flora and fauna will survive and also believe the damage caused by the goats is superficial and maybe beneficial in the long term. We don't know as goats are a relatively new venture. Cattle was king, but cattle just ain't as hardy as goats and when the hide prices dropped due to world market pressures that was the end of that gig.

Leather cured in solution of water and palo blanco is a classic example of adaptation by man to his environment. I always buy a hide or two when I go back into Santa Marta.

However, the ranchero lifestyle as depicted in the documentary Corazón Vaquero and witnessed by many of us Baja aficionados, I don't think that will survive.

The young kids born on the ranchos now go away to town for schooling at an early age. Most do not want to continue the ranchero lifestyle. Also, the gene pool up there could use some new rams and I'm not talking about the goats. Sad but true.

Truly one of the most unique places to visit in Baja and when the rains have been good the goat cheese from that area is world class!

The movie 'Bajo California: The Limit of Time", as most know, is based on the history of the Arce family clan and its roots at San Francisco (de la Sierra)... When they do a quick introduction of all the Arce's saying their name... the first cousin marriages are somewhat obvious and the logic of Don Jorge's comment are verified!

Harry Crosby's 1981 book 'The Last of the Californios' is a must get if the background and lifestyle of the Arce, Villavicencio, and other old Baja clans is of interest to you!

You make my point much better than I did

thebajarunner - 4-12-2009 at 05:28 PM

Thank you,

My rough calculation, based on observing the range of the herd we saw, is that herd is decimating about 100 square miles, just that one herd.

And, yes, nature bats last, but this could be like an Asian cricket match,
when nature gets up to bat she will be down by hundreds of runs.

RIP

CaboRon - 4-12-2009 at 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
As long as the ranch population lives on up there the goats will not destroy the sierra. As Elizabeth says, the herds are not large, and for 200 years or so the people, livestock, and flora have co-existed in a healthy and balanced situation. But take away the goats, and the life that is lived there now will cease to be. Generations of ranchers have worked to build tillable soil where once there was none in order to grow fruit trees and vegetable gardens. The women grow beautiful colorful flowers on the ranches, and herbs for teas cooking, and remedies. They care for the land because their lives literally depend on it.

In the winters of 2007 and 2008, the desert along the road up was green, blooming and just plain amazing. And if you ride back in beyond the end of the road, from ranch to ranch, you will find that it seems to go on forever. It is clean. There is no garbage, and the air is clear, even on a windy day. In years when the rainfall is scarce the colors fade, and the plants look small and dry, but they miraculously spring back to life when water comes. There aren't many places like the Sierra de San Francisco, and the unique ranch culture is a large part of what makes it special.

baron - 4-12-2009 at 07:39 PM

Goat clear-cut. Clear cutting has destructive long term results. It's that simple Ron.

Paula - 4-12-2009 at 08:12 PM

Bajarunner, could you give more specifics on the formula for your calculation?

Amy, some management would no doubt be beneficial, and abandoned herds are certainly a problem. The village of San Francisco is in sad shape, as are the road-accessible ranches, but these cover a tiny area. The back country is another thing entirely. It could be argued that a group of people living as these ranchers do on the earth in this time is a benefit to all mankind. To dismiss their society as merely quaint does not do them justice. As Don Jorge says, it is not a growing culture, the ranch population is shrinking.

And we really can't go back to a time before goats were brought over by the padres and the soldiers. It may be that the dessert has suffered most from the flocks of people who have been coming to this remote place for just the past 60 or 70 years in search of unfenced land. Removing the ranchers and the livestock may not be that difficult. But try and stop the numbers of tourists with their motorcycles, ATVs and big pick-ups-- that won't be easy.

thebajarunner - 4-12-2009 at 10:16 PM

The calculation was seventh grade simple,
we drove five or six miles past the ranch and still saw the goats.
pi, r squared makes 5.5 miles a total of 95 square miles
6 miles is 113 sq miles.

As to the rest, I guess it is pretty simple,
run the goats, toast the flora.

Remember how the Navy went in and cleared all the goats from Catalina Island?
Why?
Because they were destroying the native flora.

But hey, 100 square miles here
100 square miles there...
it is sort of like the Dems budget,
a few billion here
a few billion there
who's counting....????

Mexitron - 4-13-2009 at 04:18 AM

Of course there are negative effects but we've got to eat too. Would you have stopped the million strong herds of buffalo years ago because of the devastating effect they had on the prairie...ultimately, the buffalo's stampeding ended up tilling the earth (along with prairie dogs and other critters) and made the grasslands stronger.

On a drive last month out onto the open prairie the grasses were still dry from the modest drought in North Texas--only one area was green--a goat ranch! And no, they don't irrigate...its just the tilling with their hooves and all the "compost" from the goats that makes the soil better and more able to hang on to water, so who's to say what's right. There's a balance to all this--I don't want to see mass destruction from intensive overgrazing either (like the Channel Islands where the goats/sheep/pigs were neither harvested nor had any natural predators).

Cypress - 4-13-2009 at 08:01 AM

Mexitron, Goats prefer to browse leaves,stems, etc. Grass is not their food of choice.

wilderone - 4-13-2009 at 09:30 AM

"I have no doubt the flora and fauna will survive and also believe the damage caused by the goats is superficial and maybe beneficial in the long term. We don't know as goats are a relatively new venture."

They won't survive. It's not superficial and it's definitely not beneficial in the long term. What would possibly support such a theory? Maybe YOU don't know about the damage that this realtively "new venture" will cause, but historically, there is plenty of evidence. I also see the small herd at Mission San Borja. They take them out every night - different places because they strip the vegetation off the hills and valleys. When I was in the Sierra SF, I saw the thick algae scum in the few fresh water ponds that were there - the goats pollute the streams as well. Indigenous flower and plant species? How many will become extinct because they won't be around long enough to flower, seed, regenerate? I fought the cattle grazing in Lake Tahoe valleys - and the goats are just as bad. The ranchers with goat herds can pen them and feed them instead of letting them graze. Of course this will not happen because Baja Californios are too far removed from environmental causes to want to save their land, and there is no dynamic to spur change. Baja CA may have some wide open spaces, but, as you all know, it is a fragile ecosystem - all intertwined - and all threatened. Mining, goats, cattle, fishing, bulldozing, roads, waste, development - an ecosystem at risk of being irreparably harmed, to the detriment of its citizens and tourists and future generations.

bajalou - 4-13-2009 at 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebajarunner
The calculation was seventh grade simple,
we drove five or six miles past the ranch and still saw the goats.
pi, r squared makes 5.5 miles a total of 95 square miles
6 miles is 113 sq miles.

A

My calculator says pr,r squared at 6 miles is 28.27 sq miles.

It's 113 if you are squaring the diameter rather than the radius. Quite a difference it the totals.

AT 5.5 miles (2.75 mile radius) it's 23.76 sq miles.

Skipjack Joe - 4-13-2009 at 03:52 PM

"six miles past the ranch" means 6 miles from the ranch to the last of the goats. That's radius - not diameter.

3.14 X 6 X 6 = ?

bajalou - 4-13-2009 at 04:27 PM

You're saying that the goats started 6 miles before the ranch and continued 6 miles beyond. If that's the case, then the 6 x 6 is correct. I didn't get that from the first post.

Pompano - 4-13-2009 at 05:38 PM

Scenario:

The ranch sits at the end of a box canyon.

The goats extend 6 miles beyond.

How wide is the canyon for 6 miles?

See where this is going?

That is the way I was taught

thebajarunner - 4-13-2009 at 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
"six miles past the ranch" means 6 miles from the ranch to the last of the goats. That's radius - not diameter.

3.14 X 6 X 6 = ?

I think "r" = radius
radius would be distance from the ranch to the end of travel

My answer to the way you spelled it out = 113.14 sq. mi.

If we started six miles before the ranch and went six past would that not = "d" (diameter)??
and, I sort of remember that you us pi times d for circumfrence, but it has been a really long time.

I am sticking with my original math....

LaTijereta - 4-13-2009 at 06:11 PM

"Guys they are talking about us"

mtgoat666 - 4-13-2009 at 06:38 PM

this goat says that people who drive big fuel-hog trucks and RVs or are US citizens (largest per capity energy users in world) should not tell us goats how much we can and cannot eat in :light:

until you prove you have a low-carbon footprint and live a sustainable lifestyle, you should not tell us goats what we can and cannot do

yes we can!

vgabndo - 4-13-2009 at 06:58 PM

Well "runner" you had me on your side until you decided to blame the US economy on progressives alone. No deal! Part of our OWN problems with the environment result from huge cattle operations being allowed to let their hooved locusts graze on the public's land for virtually nothing. I have pointed out to many a seat mate on a transcontinental flight that you can see a barbed wire fence from 40,000 feet. One side is a natural landscape, the other side is a barren desert sacrificed to the burger king. Do I have an answer? Only that I eat very little red meat.

Mexitron - 4-14-2009 at 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Mexitron, Goats prefer to browse leaves,stems, etc. Grass is not their food of choice.

Prefer seems to be the important distinction--if goats are fenced in with nothing else to browse they'll forage on the grass...

wilderone - 4-14-2009 at 10:07 AM

"this goat says that people who drive big fuel-hog trucks and RVs or are US citizens (largest per capity energy users in world) should not tell us goats how much we can and cannot eat in"

NONSENSE. The Baja CA peninsula is a finite region, with little water, and a fragile ecosystem. Being a Baja CA citizen with no car is certainly not a license to destroy the environment. There is a sustainable way to raise goats and there is a progressively destructive way which will bite you in the ass in the long run. Why can't people become educated and raise goats AND learn to protect your immediate environment for their OWN benefit and the benefit of future generations? There is an organization called Floresta which educates indigenous Mexicans and others in the world about new agricultural methods which are sustainable. Learning and education and change is constantly being undertaken - and there is no reason why that can't happen in Baja CA. They just need to learn a better way. This better way will serve THEM. It's not a restriction - it's simply a different way. Do some homework and learn why regions in Africa are so poor. It's because they've used up their natural resources. Now these poor Africans look to the rest of the world to teach them, feed them, help them. Does it always take dire circumstances and catastrophe to nudge change and education? It's not like the answers are some secret mystery. I was traveling in the highlands of Chiapas and drove through a small, very poor settlement. There was a crude sign posted near the stream running nearby, which instructed not to go potty or dump in the stream. One would think that this would be a basic understanding for them by now, for a population who is so dependent on the stream for everything in their life. But no - that sign served as the education for those who STILL just don't get it. At least the current generation will finally learn not to pollute their water source. So you see, once the damaging methods are understood, change can begin, and the future looks brighter for everything concerned - regardless of how or by whom the message is brought.

motoged - 4-14-2009 at 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
this goat says that people who drive big fuel-hog trucks and RVs or are US citizens (largest per capity energy users in world) should not tell us goats how much we can and cannot eat ... :light:

When I first read the heading on this thread, these were the goats that first came to my mind

Goats and insects will probably survive WAY longer than any of us. :light: