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thebajarunner
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Destructive goats in the Sierra
we trekked up to San Francisco de la Sierra,
one of the really stunning beauties of all Baja.
Near the top there is a rancho, that has a very large herd of goats, as well as a number of cattle.
Due to some car problems we camped fairly near to the rancho for the night and observed, first-hand, the incredible destructive manner in which the
goats are gobbling up all of the vegetation.
It actually was fascinating to watch a goat mouth a large prickly cactus, waller it around for a few minutes, then swallow the whole thing,
but a brief walk around the area revealed some really wasted landscape, and healthy trees stripped of all leaves within reach.
Really sad, and I suspect that there is nothing that can (or will) be done to prevent this wasting of a fragile landscape.
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CaboRon
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Are you talking about these people ?
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=29881
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thebajarunner
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No idea,
I have not yet seen the film, although I plan to order one right away.
However, it does not matter how charming, suave, persuasive and comely the owners of these critters might be,
the goats are trashing a lot of lovely environment,
areas that likely will never recover,
and that is sad....
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Skip_Mac
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So Much Baja, for so little time
"However, it does not matter how charming, suave, persuasive and comely the owners of these critters might be,the goats are trashing a lot of lovely
environment,areas that likely will never recover,and that is sad.... ".
It might recover, but Not In My Lifetime
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CaboRon
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But , they're soooo cute 
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805gregg
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| Quote: | Originally posted by CaboRon
But , they're soooo cute
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And good to eat.
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thebajarunner
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Turtles are "so cute" too, and great to eat...
| Quote: | Originally posted by CaboRon
But , they're soooo cute
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CaboRon
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The analogy does not work ....
I don't believe goats will ever be extinct 
They will eat anything ....
And they do taste good
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thebajarunner
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Actually, the analogy is spot on
| Quote: | Originally posted by CaboRon
The analogy does not work ....
I don't believe goats will ever be extinct
They will eat anything ....
And they do taste good |
I was not worried about the extinction of the goats.
I was worried about the extinction of the flora in the region,
and it will become extinct if their ravaging continues.
and yeah, turtles taste great
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Cypress
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thebajarunner, Too many goats, cattle, etc in any area will over-graze and turn it into a barren wasteland. 
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elizabeth
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Is there a scientific basis for the belief that the relatively small herds of goats in those mountains are destroying an ecosystem? In some places,
animals eating low level branches enhance the environment for lower growing plants that then gain more sunlight. Since the herds will move, do you
know how long it takes for the "destroyed" habitat to reestablish itself?
Just curious...most of those ranches don't have enormous herds...and barely eke out a sustenance living.
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Paula
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As long as the ranch population lives on up there the goats will not destroy the sierra. As Elizabeth says, the herds are not large, and for 200
years or so the people, livestock, and flora have co-existed in a healthy and balanced situation. But take away the goats, and the life that is lived
there now will cease to be. Generations of ranchers have worked to build tillable soil where once there was none in order to grow fruit trees and
vegetable gardens. The women grow beautiful colorful flowers on the ranches, and herbs for teas cooking, and remedies. They care for the land
because their lives literally depend on it.
In the winters of 2007 and 2008, the desert along the road up was green, blooming and just plain amazing. And if you ride back in beyond the end of
the road, from ranch to ranch, you will find that it seems to go on forever. It is clean. There is no garbage, and the air is clear, even on a windy
day. In years when the rainfall is scarce the colors fade, and the plants look small and dry, but they miraculously spring back to life when water
comes. There aren't many places like the Sierra de San Francisco, and the unique ranch culture is a large part of what makes it special.
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CaboRon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by thebajarunner
| Quote: | Originally posted by CaboRon
The analogy does not work ....
I don't believe goats will ever be extinct
They will eat anything ....
And they do taste good |
I was not worried about the extinction of the goats.
I was worried about the extinction of the flora in the region,
and it will become extinct if their ravaging continues.
and yeah, turtles taste great |
Your logic is way off ........... nothing spot on about it....
You are relating turtles which are an indangered species with goats 
Also their eating habits have nothing to do with each other, turtles do not destroy habitat by eating too much
You are spot off
CaboRon
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Mexitron
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| Quote: | Originally posted by elizabeth
Is there a scientific basis for the belief that the relatively small herds of goats in those mountains are destroying an ecosystem? In some places,
animals eating low level branches enhance the environment for lower growing plants that then gain more sunlight. Since the herds will move, do you
know how long it takes for the "destroyed" habitat to reestablish itself?
Just curious...most of those ranches don't have enormous herds...and barely eke out a sustenance living. |
My observation on my trip up there years ago was that the overgrazing was confined to a relatively small area and didn't seem worrisome...folks are so
removed from where their food comes from that when they see that there's a price to pay for it to the environment they're shocked. But look at the
millions of acres of native grassland in the U.S. that has been transformed into cattle pasture--in California the native bunchgrasses used to cover
vast tracts of land but are now mostly European grasses, like oats and rye, which are tolerant to cattle grazing. We really have no place to be
advising the Mexicans in the Sierra on damage to the environment.
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Skipjack Joe
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John Muir was apalled at the destruction they brought to the Sierras of California. He called them four footed locusts. It was a major motivation to
fight to preserve the sierras.
But, as suggested, the sense of proportion in california was unquestionably much larger than in baja.
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David K
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Just remember...
Nature bats last!
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Cypress
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Have used goats to thin underbrush and reduce the threat of wildfires. 
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CaboRon
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There are a couple of herds in Orange County that are regularly hired to clear brush ......
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Jorge
| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
for 200 years or so the people, livestock, and flora have co-existed in a healthy and balanced situation. |
I have no doubt the flora and fauna will survive and also believe the damage caused by the goats is superficial and maybe beneficial in the long term.
We don't know as goats are a relatively new venture. Cattle was king, but cattle just ain't as hardy as goats and when the hide prices dropped due
to world market pressures that was the end of that gig.
Leather cured in solution of water and palo blanco is a classic example of adaptation by man to his environment. I always buy a hide or two when I go
back into Santa Marta.
However, the ranchero lifestyle as depicted in the documentary Corazón Vaquero and witnessed by many of us Baja aficionados, I don't think that will
survive.
The young kids born on the ranchos now go away to town for schooling at an early age. Most do not want to continue the ranchero lifestyle. Also, the
gene pool up there could use some new rams and I'm not talking about the goats. Sad but true.
Truly one of the most unique places to visit in Baja and when the rains have been good the goat cheese from that area is world class!
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The movie 'Bajo California: The Limit of Time", as most know, is based on the history of the Arce family clan and its roots at San Francisco (de la
Sierra)... When they do a quick introduction of all the Arce's saying their name... the first cousin marriages are somewhat obvious and the logic of
Don Jorge's comment are verified!
Harry Crosby's 1981 book 'The Last of the Californios' is a must get if the background and lifestyle of the Arce, Villavicencio, and other old Baja
clans is of interest to you!
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thebajarunner
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You make my point much better than I did
Thank you,
My rough calculation, based on observing the range of the herd we saw, is that herd is decimating about 100 square miles, just that one herd.
And, yes, nature bats last, but this could be like an Asian cricket match,
when nature gets up to bat she will be down by hundreds of runs.
RIP
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