Maderita
Senior Nomad
Posts: 675
Registered: 12-14-2008
Location: San Diego
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Blaming the victim
I started to post this as a reply on another thread, regarding an all too frequent dynamic. Perhaps it is worthy of a separate thread, so as not to
call out any individual(s) for their online behavior. We have all done it, at one time or another, toward each other. Most of the time it is
inadvertent, unconscious behavior. Less frequently, it is deliberately aggressive behavior (some "bone to pick" with another member).
I believe that it is a human reaction to blame the victim and attribute fault. It is comforting and anxiety-reducing to believe that "it can't happen
to me". By attributing fault to the victim of accident, misfortune, robbery, extortion, etc., we alleviate our own sense of anxiety and disown our
fallibility.
To provide an out of context extreme example: A rock climber rappels off the end of their rope and is severely injured or dies. The initial reaction
from other climbers often lacks empathy for the victim and family. The anxiety reducing thought is, "What an idiot! I always tie a stopper knot in the
end of the rope when I can't see it reach the ground." Personally, I find it challenging to have empathy when I read about a victim of heat stroke who
intentionally went to Badwater, Death Valley in July just to witness a thermometer peaking at 130F.
The examples on this forum are usually less extreme, and our reactions tend to follow the same callous behavior:
"They shouldn't have driven at night" probably takes first place.
"He shouldn't have flashed his money" (or should have kept it hidden, or not carried cash).
"She shouldn't have traveled alone."
"That's what he gets for not checking the lug nuts". (or other maintenance issues)
"Shouldn't have been in that part of town".
"If he'd had a guard dog (or alarm, or camera, or weapon), it wouldn't have happened."
Por favor, amigos. Let's try to refrain from "blaming the victim". Instead of piling on more blame in our replies, let's call out the victim blaming
or shaming when we read it.
I also suggest that we refrain from quoting the offending member when we call out victim-blaming behavior. That gives the offender an opportunity to
consider their prior choice of words and edit their reply. There is no need to shame the offender either, when there is a learning opportunity.
The member who is brave enough to post on this forum may feel shamed or bullied. The end result will be a diminishing number of posts and a declining
membership.
We have a unique and valuable wealth of information in the searchable history on Baja Nomad. Let's keep it viable by respecting our members.
Gracias y saludos a todos.
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KurtG
Super Nomad
Posts: 1211
Registered: 1-27-2004
Location: California Central Coast
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Mood: Press On Regardless!!
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Well said.
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surabi
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6165
Registered: 5-6-2016
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I agree, but there is a difference between blaming the victim and offering suggestions for how one can lessen the chances of something happening.
Responses are not only intended for the OP of a thread, but will be read by other posters who may benefit from knowing best practices in order to
hopefully avoid what happened to another person.
The difference depends on how a response is stated and its intent. "You should have..." or "How could you not anticipate..." or "It was stupid of you
to..." are all victim-blaming.
On the other hand, "I always do such and such in order to lessen the chances of this happening" or "It's a good idea for travelers to..." are not
attacks on the victim, but suggestions for both the victim and other readers to hopefully avoid similar scenarios in the future.
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mrbogo
Newbie
Posts: 8
Registered: 5-9-2024
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It's all too easy to blame victims after the fact, when really none of us are immune from bad luck or poor decisions sometimes.
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3559
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
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Quote: Originally posted by Maderita  | I started to post this as a reply on another thread, regarding an all too frequent dynamic. Perhaps it is worthy of a separate thread, so as not to
call out any individual(s) for their online behavior. We have all done it, at one time or another, toward each other. Most of the time it is
inadvertent, unconscious behavior. Less frequently, it is deliberately aggressive behavior (some "bone to pick" with another member).
I believe that it is a human reaction to blame the victim and attribute fault. It is comforting and anxiety-reducing to believe that "it can't happen
to me". By attributing fault to the victim of accident, misfortune, robbery, extortion, etc., we alleviate our own sense of anxiety and disown our
fallibility.
To provide an out of context extreme example: A rock climber rappels off the end of their rope and is severely injured or dies. The initial reaction
from other climbers often lacks empathy for the victim and family. The anxiety reducing thought is, "What an idiot! I always tie a stopper knot in the
end of the rope when I can't see it reach the ground." Personally, I find it challenging to have empathy when I read about a victim of heat stroke who
intentionally went to Badwater, Death Valley in July just to witness a thermometer peaking at 130F.
The examples on this forum are usually less extreme, and our reactions tend to follow the same callous behavior:
"They shouldn't have driven at night" probably takes first place.
"He shouldn't have flashed his money" (or should have kept it hidden, or not carried cash).
"She shouldn't have traveled alone."
"That's what he gets for not checking the lug nuts". (or other maintenance issues)
"Shouldn't have been in that part of town".
"If he'd had a guard dog (or alarm, or camera, or weapon), it wouldn't have happened."
Por favor, amigos. Let's try to refrain from "blaming the victim". Instead of piling on more blame in our replies, let's call out the victim blaming
or shaming when we read it.
I also suggest that we refrain from quoting the offending member when we call out victim-blaming behavior. That gives the offender an opportunity to
consider their prior choice of words and edit their reply. There is no need to shame the offender either, when there is a learning opportunity.
The member who is brave enough to post on this forum may feel shamed or bullied. The end result will be a diminishing number of posts and a declining
membership.
We have a unique and valuable wealth of information in the searchable history on Baja Nomad. Let's keep it viable by respecting our members.
Gracias y saludos a todos. |
Is this written for a philosophy class? Reads like someone wanting political or social correctness to me. Maybe decorum.
If you have a problem with someone posting their opinions, comments, criticism, whatever, address it. Leave the pontificating and rhetoric to
trolls.
Maybe you're writing that if someone drops the ball, falls asleep at the wheel, and does something stupid, we shouldn't agree with them. ''Yeah
Bob, you spaced out there buddy, and did something stupid.'' No one is calling Bob stupid -- but his carelessness certainly is and was stupid.
There's a distinction here.
If you're looking for civility on this forum, good luck.
BTW, I call a stupid act stupid. Trolls get called stupid for showing up here and writing stupid chit. Ah, the distinction.
Anyone feeling shame or bullied is a snowflake and might be happier on FB. Stop trying to censor this forum!
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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cupcake
Nomad
Posts: 284
Registered: 4-23-2024
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lee | No one is calling Bob stupid -- but his carelessness certainly is and was stupid. There's a distinction here.
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I gota disagree. We don't know how much money was lost, it could have been relatively insignificant; something like an oversight we all make from time
to time. Maybe it was a decoy, to avoid something worse from happening.
[Edited on 7-16-2024 by cupcake]
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surabi
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6165
Registered: 5-6-2016
Member Is Offline
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When people post about something bad that happened to them, they have very likely already kicked themselves for how they might have done things
differently.
The purpose of them posting about it is usually to warn others and/or ask for advice for what to do next. Rubbing their nose in it by telling them
what they did was stupid, regardless of whether you are talking about the person or the act, accomplishes nothing, is mean-spirited, and makes the
responder come across as someone who considers themselves smarter and superior to the victim.
There is nothing wrong with not sugar-coating advice if the poster is asking for advice- but advice is not telling the poster they did something
stupid, and a poster not appreciating being told that has nothing to do with them being a "snowflake".
A snowflake is when a poster only wants sympathetic replies that agree with them and sugar-coated nicey-nicey responses and gets offended if anyone
offers straightforward, tough-love advice. But tough-love advice doesn't include victim-blaming, even if it isn't drripping with empathy.
And people don't generally accept advice when they feel they are being attacked, so doing so serves no purpose.
[Edited on 7-15-2024 by surabi]
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Maderita
Senior Nomad
Posts: 675
Registered: 12-14-2008
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lee |
Is this written for a philosophy class? Reads like someone wanting political or social correctness to me. Maybe decorum.
If you have a problem with someone posting their opinions, comments, criticism, whatever, address it. Leave the pontificating and rhetoric to
trolls.
Maybe you're writing that if someone drops the ball, falls asleep at the wheel, and does something stupid, we shouldn't agree with them. ''Yeah
Bob, you spaced out there buddy, and did something stupid.'' No one is calling Bob stupid -- but his carelessness certainly is and was stupid.
There's a distinction here.
If you're looking for civility on this forum, good luck.
BTW, I call a stupid act stupid. Trolls get called stupid for showing up here and writing stupid chit. Ah, the distinction.
Anyone feeling shame or bullied is a snowflake and might be happier on FB. Stop trying to censor this forum! |
Lee,
My apologies to you. I did not intend to denounce you, or any individual. That is why I started a separate thread. My intent is to address our group
behavior and to promote some sense of human kindness and decency on this forum.
Since you are clearly referencing your reply to Bob's post about being robbed, I will address that. Yes, it was that reply which prompted me to start
this thread. That is an example of what happens on this forum and on others. We are all guilty of either committing this hurtful behavior or enabling
it. Your reply just happened to hit the 100th or 1,000th time I've read similar replies, so please don't feel too special about capturing my
attention.
I'm not trying to censor anything, rather, I'm suggesting that we be aware of the disowned parts of our egos and learn to check ourselves before
posting a reply.
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surabi
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6165
Registered: 5-6-2016
Member Is Offline
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Yes, it says far more about the victim-blamer than the victim.
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3559
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Maderita | | Quote: Originally posted by Lee |
Is this written for a philosophy class? Reads like someone wanting political or social correctness to me. Maybe decorum.
If you have a problem with someone posting their opinions, comments, criticism, whatever, address it. Leave the pontificating and rhetoric to
trolls.
Maybe you're writing that if someone drops the ball, falls asleep at the wheel, and does something stupid, we shouldn't agree with them. ''Yeah
Bob, you spaced out there buddy, and did something stupid.'' No one is calling Bob stupid -- but his carelessness certainly is and was stupid.
There's a distinction here.
If you're looking for civility on this forum, good luck.
BTW, I call a stupid act stupid. Trolls get called stupid for showing up here and writing stupid chit. Ah, the distinction.
Anyone feeling shame or bullied is a snowflake and might be happier on FB. Stop trying to censor this forum! |
Lee,
My apologies to you. I did not intend to denounce you, or any individual. That is why I started a separate thread. My intent is to address our group
behavior and to promote some sense of human kindness and decency on this forum.
Since you are clearly referencing your reply to Bob's post about being robbed, I will address that. Yes, it was that reply which prompted me to start
this thread. That is an example of what happens on this forum and on others. We are all guilty of either committing this hurtful behavior or enabling
it. Your reply just happened to hit the 100th or 1,000th time I've read similar replies, so please don't feel too special about capturing my
attention.
I'm not trying to censor anything, rather, I'm suggesting that we be aware of the disowned parts of our egos and learn to check ourselves before
posting a reply. |
Think what you want. If you considered my reply hurtful behavior and enabling, you are a snowflake. My response to Bob was, in my opinion,
inquisitive. He didn't mention how much money he lost or why he didn't hide it well. He could have said he dropped the ball, etc., but chose to
rant about it. Fine with me. He got some sympathy responses which is probably what he wanted.
Surfers who get killed get my empathy/sympathy, along with those who disappear. Cops scamming is an everyday occurrence so it's not a big deal to
me.
Save your proselytizing for the real gringo victims. Bob's not one of them.
US Marines: providing enemies of America an opportunity to die for their country since 1775.
What I say before any important decision.
F*ck it.
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Flatfish
Newbie
Posts: 13
Registered: 3-18-2024
Member Is Offline
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I’ll throw this out there, I think this was very well written. I’ve had a couple of barbs thrown at me as a newbie on this forum and rather than
to bite back I refrain from commenting, which isn’t why I joined. A good lively conversation is healthy to have, but one where lambasting someone
just is negative input. My humble two bits…..
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65069
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Nice comment! Welcome to Baja Nomad!
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