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BAJACAT
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Cat-------Probably not, but don't be giving out the coordinates less somebody surfing the net find it and kill it, or worse, put a fence around it.
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Haa thats funny Barry.Im happy to inform you that this horse is well living in Rancho San Luis (Laguna
Hanson)..upss here I go disclosing the where abouts of this horse,is road kill for sure now.
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
No reply to this, I see?? |
David, do you have a point with that comment? I totally disagree with you, and Barry, so what? And, I have a life, so i had other things to do besides
discuss this with you. What a concept. You should try that, sometime? |
Do you know how to say "I'm sorry I was wrong about you, again"?
[Edited on 1-14-2008 by David K]
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Roberto
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Wong about what, David? You have an opinion. I have another. I disagree with yours. What's to be wrong about?
You really are clueless.
And, I consider this particular horse officially dead, so carry on without me, please.
[Edited on 1-14-2008 by Roberto]
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HotSchott
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I don't know if it is possible for there to be so many correct opinions about the same thing, but what the heck, here I go. It has been my experience
that it is not discovery of sites or mapping them that eventually leads to their destruction. It is actually much more basic when you stand back from
the problem. I have visited archaeological sites in California, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona and Baja Norte. They all have many things in common.
First they are all interesting to me and equally irrelevant to others. It's about values. I sense appreciation and significance to these places at
an emotional level. Many of them are extremely hard to find and dangerous to get into like some of the Anasazi ruins on the sides of cliffs. I have
hiked with people and driven off road with others that simply have no appreciation for any of this stuff. Artifacts and obvious historical sites hold
no significance to them. They don't necessarily go anywhere specifically looking for things to destroy, but they don't get wowed by any of it either.
There is normally nothing malicious about it.
As I mentioned before, It takes a certain degree of physical awareness to identify things of ancient origin even when it is under your nose. Many
places I have been over the years (especially in Baja) had never been travelled at all except on foot. With the introduction of vehicles, vehicle
races and off road activity in general so many remote locations became playgrounds for off roaders. The Eastern escarpment of the Sierra Juarez is
the epitome of what I am talking about. I still don't believe that people go looking for sites to trash. It is more like people that know nothing
about the historical significance of of certain areas and may not value their significance are going more places in greater numbers than ever before.
It is simple human population explosion. As these people camp in more and more remote canyons without restrictions and light huge fires, and defecate
in the open and paint rocks with graffiti and leave trash the areas significance to me is lost. I don't own a quad or a dirt bike. I know lots of
people that do and don't leave their mark everywhere. It's all about values and population and accessibility.
In the US we have not "fixed" the problem either. With all the restrictions, laws and regulations and resources to protect native sites, most were
still looted or trashed long ago. People on horseback trashed Indian sites 100 years ago because many people hated Native Americans. We humans have
no common values, which is the philosophical root of all problems historically and now. Our perceptions of what is important to us individually has
directed our actions through history and continues to do so now.
So to back away from the problem, the guy (or gal) that started this thread by asking for GPS coordinates to specific locations for petros. Does
anyone here think is asking so he can drive four hours into the desert with a portable generator and a jackhammer and grind this stuff off a wall?
Does anybody think he is from National Geographic doing a special documentary on the rapidly disappearing heritage sites in Northern Baja? Here's a
thought, maybe he is an average Joe like some of us that thinks this stuff is cool and wants to show his kids something that have never seen in the US
because most of them are gone.
As I said before, I don't own a GPS and I have no opinion on how they should be used or not. Curiosity is a sign of intelligence and it has been my
experience that intelligent people usually don't ask questions for vindictive reasons. Archaeological sites get trashed by the acts of stupid people
and sadly I think there are more stupid people on the planet than smart people. Stupid people with money. Stupid people with little value for
anything they don't personally understand. Stupid people running our governments telling us how we should live our lives. It seems inevitable that
changes in the world are increasingly not for the better where the environment is concerned and this is nothing new.
But for the curious few that would ask where or how to observe something different and special, I think providing a modern answer to their quest with
a few words requesting certain respect be shown to these areas is pretty damn reasonable to me. Protecting the world with an opinion doesn't seem to
be working for most of the planet that I have seen. Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one and nobody wants another one.
[Edited on 1-15-2008 by HotSchott]
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Barry A.
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Mood: optimistic
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Very well said, Hotshott!!!
I feel very much the same way as you do, and I do think you are on to something.
The only part that I might slightly differ from you is in the "state" of pictograph and petroglyth sites today-------I am not quite as cynical as
you----------I do believe that we are losing many pictograph sites, but mostly too weathering, and not vandalism. I have recently visited some of the
anasazi petroglyth sites in Utah and Colorado that I first visited some 40 years ago and they looked essentially the same as before, except they
appeared slightly dimmer, and not as "sharp" as I remember them, and that show up in my old photographs. Also, the huge share of vandalism to those
sites is very old, and consists of gunshot wounds and actual crude thefts, both occuring over 60 years ago, or more.
The pictograph sites in Anza-Borrego have definitely "faded" since I first saw them as a kid some 60 years ago, and that is directly the result of
weathering, not vandals.
But there are still thousands of sites throughout the west that are visible, have not been vandalized, and are still a joy to see, and awesome to just
contemplate.
Again, you have made a great contribution to the discussion here, I believe, and I thank you for your observations and I think, valid conclusions.
Barry
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David K
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Link to petroglyph photos and location directions visited after this thread was started by 'Bug' is here: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=29358
Here's one as seen from the parking area at Rattlesnake (Vibora) Canyon entrance... 8.0 road miles from Guadalupe Canyon:
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BAJACAT
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B C NORTE,is full of this guys,(petro's)
If you like PETROGLYPHS,YOU are going to enjoy this
link.http://www.petroglyphs.us/photographs_pictographs_petroglyphs_baja_norte_california_BC.htm
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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Ken Cooke
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Mood: Pole Line Road postponed due to injury
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BAJACAT
B C NORTE,is full of this guys,(petro's)
If you like PETROGLYPHS,YOU are going to enjoy this
link.http://www.petroglyphs.us/photographs_pictographs_petroglyphs_baja_norte_california_BC.htm |
That was a cool link, 'Cat. So, I read somewhere that the tribal elders would produce petros while the younger generation was away tending to the
children or hunting for food. Do you know anything about this? My great-grandmother was fascinated by the Native American people, so her son, my
Grandfather wrote a story about one of the stories she used to tell. I find all of this interesting, too.
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BAJACAT
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In all the books I have read they hardly ,discribe the autors of this great pictures.I may be mistaken,but maybe people like David Kier,or Jack swords
or Academicanarquist would know more.In most tribes the helders where responsable for planning and the making of this paintings.
[Edited on 1-25-2008 by BAJACAT]
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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BAJACAT
Ultra Nomad
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Location: NATIONAL CITY, CA
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LA MORA CANYON
This quote comes from this book CAMPING AND CLIMBING IN BAJA by John W Robinson dated 1975 .
The stream in canyon La Mora is dry except i n the wettest months.but several small springs provide year around water several miles up
canyon.scattered groves of washingtonia palms are located in the middle and upper reaches of the gorge.Petroglyphs opposite
a cave about four miles from the entrance reveal that indians once inhabited the canyon..
Barry what do you know about this and do you have pictures of this Petros from Canyon La Mora...
[Edited on 1-26-2008 by BAJACAT]
BAJA IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, FUN,DANGEROUS,INCREDIBLE, REMOTE, EXOTIC..JUST GO AND HAVE FUN.....
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