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stanburn
Nomad
Posts: 145
Registered: 10-4-2007
Location: Santiago, Colima, MX
Member Is Offline
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I agree that would be progress just like the people NOB that move to Mexico and refuse to assimilate here.
I am finished, 'cause in your eyes I don't get it and in my eyes you (most of you) don't get it. Therefore we have what some people call a difference
in opinion.
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Mango
Senior Nomad
Posts: 685
Registered: 4-11-2006
Location: Alta California &/or Mexicali
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bajatastic
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Personally, I believe some here are very anti-Mexican and seem to think Mexico is only a place for them to fish, drink beer, and chase women.
It's a shame how some people do not respect and badmouth the culture of where they choose to live or visit. That goes for illegals in the USA and
gringos in Baja.
What can one say to these people? One can use all the logic, compassion, and fact one can muster; but, it will never be enough for some of the black
hearted thick skulled folks around here.
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sanluquëna
Banned
Posts: 37
Registered: 8-2-2008
Location: UNINET.NET.MX
Member Is Offline
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Mango: I have one foot in both cultures and I see differing points of view from both sides of the border. There are good and bad people everywhere,
neither the US nor Mexico has a monopoly on either types. But, I can tell you from many years experience that the Mexicans -- generally -- tend to be
much more biased about people and events than Americans. Let me give you a classic example of how the perceptions about any single event change,
depending upon which side of the border you are sitting on. Here is a piece of an article from the San Clemente Times from a few weeks ago:
| Quote: | "Suspected Illegal Immigrant Dies in Custody
July 24, 2008 Print
Vol. 3, Issue 30, July 24-30, 2008
THE LATEST: A suspected illegal immigrant died July 8 while in custody of U.S. Border Patrol agents following his arrest near Max Berg Plaza Park.
Rick Poggemeyer of the San Diego County Medical Examiner’s office identified the man as Tomas Sanchez-Orcuna, 36, a Mexican citizen. As of July 23 the
cause of his death is still under investigation.
According to agent Jason Rodgers, Sanchez-Orcuna ran from uniformed agents who responded to a call around 7 p.m. He was also allegedly combative
during the arrest. Rodgers said the agents sprayed him with Oleoresin Capsicum spray, commonly called pepper spray, and also received assistance from
an off-duty firefighter. Sanchez-Orcuna, described as being a large individual, was taken to the San Clemente Border Patrol station on Interstate 5
after they conducted an immigration inspection and determined he was an illegal immigrant and Mexican national.
Once at the station, agents began a decontaminating procedure to rid him of the spray. “At that point the subject did not complain of any ailments but
just asked to have some water,” said Rodgers. “The man then started to show signs of distress, and agents immediately called for a medical technician.
The technician evaluated his condition and checked vital signs. Within seconds the man went from coherent and speaking to unconscious, and the medical
tech began CPR. Paramedics were notified immediately.”
According to Rodgers, the paramedics continued the CPR upon arrival at 8:03 p.m., but the subject was declared dead at 8:28 p.m.
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Now here is how the exact same set of facts were reported in El Universal in Mexico:
| Quote: | "Policías de EU asfixian a migrante, denuncian
Deudos exigen esclarecer la muerte y castigar a responsables
Justino Miranda Corresponsal
El Universal
Jueves 07 de agosto de 2008
CUAUTLA, Mor.— Desde que el cadáver del migrante Tomás Sánchez Osuna regresó a su hogar, en Cuautla, Morelos, el clamor generalizado de sus familiares
y amigos es castigar a los policías de Migración de Estados Unidos, a quienes responsabilizan de su muerte.
Tomás murió por insuficiencia respiratoria, debido al exceso de gas lacrimógeno que los policías de San Clemente, California, le rociaron en el rostro
cuando fue detenido en una redada.
Sus hermanos Verónica y Daniel no están conformes con ese dictamen y demandan al gobierno mexicano que exija a las autoridades estadounidenses
esclarecer el asesinato. “Tomás estaba sano y los testigos dicen que fue golpeado brutalmente, además de que le echaron mucho gas en la cara y eso
provocó su muerte”.
El director estatal de Atención al Migrante, José Maldonado Huete, secunda la denuncia y afirma que Tomás fue detenido frente a un restaurante, donde
los policías lo rociaron de gas lacrimógeno para someterlo, “y en el trayecto del restaurante a las oficinas de migración lo mataron, falleció por
abuso de autoridad por parte de la policía migratoria”. ..
La mañana del 8 de julio, Tomás y dos amigos salieron a buscar trabajo pero en la calle fueron interceptados por la policía de migración que realizaba
una redada. Quienes acompañaban a Tomás corrieron, pero él esperó a los policías y, según testigos, no opuso resistencia; empero, los agentes le
rociaron demasiado gas lacrimógeno en la cara, lo cual le provocó la muerte.
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Let me translate the Spanish version of the events for you:
U.S Police asphyxiate immigrant, complaints about doubts and urge clarification regarding the death and punishment for those responsible
Justino Miranda Correspondent
El Universal
Thursday 07 August 2008
Cuautla, Mor .- Since the corpse of immigrant Tomas Osuna Sanchez returned to his home in Cuautla, Morelos, the widespread outcry from his family and
friends is to punish those US Border Patrolmen who are responsible for his death.
Thomas died of respiratory failure due to excessive tear gas that police in San Clemente, California, sprayed in his face when he was arrested in a
raid.
His brother Daniel and sister Veronica are upset with that event and demand the Mexican government urge the U.S. authorities to investigate the
murder [yes, they use the word "murder"]. "Tomas was healthy and witnesses say he was brutally beaten, and that they sprayed too much gas in his face
and this caused his death."
The state director of Immigrant Care, Jose Maldonado Huete, supports the complaint and alleges that Thomas was arrested in front of a restaurant where
the police sprayed tear gas to subdue him, "and on the trip from the restaurant to the immigration offices they killed him, he died because of abuse
of authority by immigration officers. " ..
On the morning of July 8, Tomas and two friends went out to look for work on the street but were intercepted by police who conducted an immigration
raid. Those who accompanied Thomas ran, but he waited for police officers and, according to witnesses, did not resist, however, the agents sprayed him
with too much tear gas in his face, which killed him.
Now, that has to be the most biased piece of Mexican yellow journalism reporting I've seen in a long time. The Mexicans eat this stuff up.
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rpleger
Super Nomad
Posts: 1087
Registered: 3-12-2005
Location: H. Mulegé, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: Was good.
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RIGHT ON MANGO
I couldnt have said it better myself...
Richard on the Hill
*ABROAD*, adj. At war with savages and idiots. To be a Frenchman abroad is to
be miserable; to be an American abroad is to make others miserable.
-- Ambrose Bierce, _The Enlarged Devil\'s Dictionary_
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Bajafun777
Super Nomad
Posts: 1103
Registered: 9-13-2006
Location: Rosarito & California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying Life with Wife In Mexico, Easy on The Easy
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It is not Mexico bashing to say what is fair in the game should be fair anywhere the game is played. People want to know that if people scream for us
to be "fair" everyone should be fair including them. Now, again to say that the Mexicans are only doing the jobs that Americans will not do is not
correct. If you tell me they are doing all the field work then I will tell you what the farming cummunity had to finally come clean that this
farmwork labor is only 6% to 8% of our workforce in the United States. This does not mean that we need illegal non-citizens doing construction
jobs, store jobs, fast food, hotel work, yard/facility maintance, etc , etc, as we really have people here that do those jobs already. These people
as citizens depending on these jobs while companies that hire illegal workers should be fined and jailed. I believe this is the only true means to
stop it. I know people that are citizens here and work in the fields, when I was growing up I also worked in the fields. However, I do not feel I
owe anyone an appology for working my way through school and college and to go on to a career that pays more.
I get tired of everybody wanting the U.S.A. to play by rules, even in War conditions, while the other side does whatever it wants. This goes for all
of the other countries not just Mexico but since Mexico is so close it is usually the one wanting it one way most of the time. We had gas cheaper
than Mexico at one time and all of the gas stations in Calexico were jammed. In fact, I saw a number of the citizens of Mexico filling gas into
containers that we get into be the same on both sides and yes I think if you live in Mexico you should learn the language. Stan, I will not go on
further because it would only be me getting it wrong for even assuming we should have rules to a game the same for all playing the game. Now,
CaboRon pop a cold one and on the count of three I will drink one with you on this subject. Just because I visit and like utilizing the things and
cultures of another country does not mean I waive my right to say something is not on a level playing field or not "fair" in reagards to the way
Americans are being treated. No Hurry, No Worry, Just Fun!!! Later--------------------------- bajafun777
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loki
Banned
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-9-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
Mood: really happy
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Having just been called a "troll" for saying something that was interpreted as anti mexican on another thread. I agree with the two sided reporting on
most issues that happens in Mexico.
There is a double standard and it applies not just in Mexican newspapers but here on this board.
I just spent the last couple of hours reading old threads here where someone dared to point out some obvious problems and reports of crime in Mexico.
The responses to these posts were predictable from almost always the same folks.
There are a bunch of jaded members on this board who sit on their perch and wait to jump on anyone who dares to say anything negative about Baja.
I have decided to call these folks "sloths" because they seem to be very slow in thinking and stuck in their ways no matter how much light is shed on
any given subject.
Everyone should be given a chance to voice their opinion and not have to worry about being set upon by these "sloths".
Baja and Mexico is changing and people should be aware of these changes.
Hey "sloth". Do not respond to any post you do not agree with so that others can, so that there can be some decent exchanges here. Not some onesided
banter about how great and perfect Baja is.
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by loki]
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k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by loki troll
Hey "sloth". Do not respond to any post you do not agree with so that others can, so that there can be some decent exchanges here. Not some onesided
banter about how great and perfect Baja is.
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by loki troll] |
I think baja is a great place. It is almost perfect for me. Almost?? Well where I'm at right now I can't buy beer until 10 AM and I just finished the
last 4 with breakfast.
I'm a GIANT SLOTH and I love baja!!!
okee dokee lokee??
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vandenberg
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5118
Registered: 6-21-2005
Location: Nopolo
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
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Loki,
For "low key" you're pretty opinionated.
Not to mention " tightly strung "
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by vandenberg]
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ELINVESTIG8R
Select Nomad
Posts: 15882
Registered: 11-20-2007
Location: Southern California
Member Is Offline
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Bajajack
Banned
Posts: 370
Registered: 5-20-2007
Location: Arizona
Member Is Offline
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I've been called
a racist and anti-mexican on this board and neither is true.
News is just that, good or bad, let it be told and let everyone decide for themselves.
From where I'm sitting I can say without a doubt in the last year or so, ever since we started passing anti-immigration laws the attitude of the
mexican people has changed, for the worse.
\"take what you can, give nothing back!\"
We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the
American people.\'
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
We can have no \"50-50\" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
Theodore Roosevelt
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stanburn
Nomad
Posts: 145
Registered: 10-4-2007
Location: Santiago, Colima, MX
Member Is Offline
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Well Loki,
Based on what I have read and the 2 U2us you have sent, I would have to say that of the 28 postings you have made in 2 days and the 2 USUs, you will
reach Super Nomad status in one month without having added more than 2 postings of substance.
Remember what opinions are like and that means yours as well as mine.
You, and others, may want to think whether your typing is really worthy of pressing the Post Reply button. I know mine aren't, that's why I only have
68 posts in 10 months. At your pace you will have over 4000 posts in the same time that I posted 68 and you will think that you have contributed.
Sorry for the public chastising, but I want some folks to understand what you showed me in the U2U without posting the details.
Oh and buy the way, I vote in the troll category.
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stanburn
Nomad
Posts: 145
Registered: 10-4-2007
Location: Santiago, Colima, MX
Member Is Offline
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Wow, this will put me to 67.
Loki, if you feel you need to do so, feel free to quote any of the U2Us I have sent you to help make your case. When you do so, please copy your own
comments. If you don't post your comments, don't worry I won't as we both know what you said.
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loki
Banned
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-9-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
Mood: really happy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by stanburn
Well Loki,
Based on what I have read and the 2 U2us you have sent, I would have to say that of the 28 postings you have made in 2 days and the 2 USUs, you will
reach Super Nomad status in one month without having added more than 2 postings of substance.
Remember what opinions are like and that means yours as well as mine.
You, and others, may want to think whether your typing is really worthy of pressing the Post Reply button. I know mine aren't, that's why I only have
68 posts in 10 months. At your pace you will have over 4000 posts in the same time that I posted 68 and you will think that you have contributed.
Sorry for the public chastising, but I want some folks to understand what you showed me in the U2U without posting the details.
Oh and buy the way, I vote in the troll category. |
I am glad to report that I used the u2u feature as I think the board administrator intended it for. I did not attempt to belittle you or tell you what
I really thought of you in the thread. I used a message in the u2u so as to not offend anyone here.
If my posts are bothering you, please do not respond to them and you will make myself and many others very happy.
Now do not go away mad, just go away.
I want the truth. Do not give me B$
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loki
Banned
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-9-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
Mood: really happy
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Grover,
You could be right as I was told about this forum some months ago by a friend of mine who had joined at that time.
Does it really matter who is posting and why or is it about the the fact some of the longer serving posters are upset that there is new blood here
now.
Its interesting to ponder it anyways.
I want the truth. Do not give me B$
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stanburn
Nomad
Posts: 145
Registered: 10-4-2007
Location: Santiago, Colima, MX
Member Is Offline
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Loki,
Congratulations, 31 in 2 days that puts you over 5000 in 10 months. Now please explain to me why you think it is okay for you to respond to posts you
don't agree with, but you don't want others to do so?
Maybe living in Mexico has fouled my brain so I can only see the inconsistencies of the posts here?
Also according to you the U2U function is provided so one can send vulgar comments to another person?
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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Grover hit it on the head in noting that there has been a deluge of "new" member(s) here in the forum that seem to have attended the same school of
forum posting format and style. It is also curious to note that "they" all seem to be very angry and answer spewing poison to anybody who does not
completely agree and share "their" point of view.
Then "they" all adopt the line that anybody who doesn't share "their" point of view does not want to hear the news, know the real truth and/or has
some evil agenda to lure unsuspecting gringos south of the border for personal financial benefit. Extremists usually see the world solely in terms of
black and white when in reality it is mostly grey. Same with this issue here.
I don't know of anyone here who has posted that they don't want to hear the news. Most of us here in Baja and on the forum stay well informed, are
aware of the realities of life down here right now (good and bad) and generally welcome the news reports to keep us all safe, fat and happy.
The difference lies in that most of us would just appreciate hearing the news without the story getting its spin by somebody with their own agenda;
especially when translating articles originally written in Spanish. I have been very fluent in Spanish for over 35 years and when I read some of the
spin reports given by some of the recent "new" poster(s) I can only wonder what article "they" read as I have found some of those translations to be
misleading at best and dead wrong at worst.
It becomes obvious that the motivation to post and spin certain articles and news reports by some of our "new" poster(s) has been something other than
to just keep us Nomads informed. In time "they" are exposed as someone with "their" own personal agenda to cause harm to a region "they" perceive has
harmed "them". Probably due to some legal problems "they" had here in Baja and why "they" had to leave town in a hurry just a step ahead of the
federales. History has shown that those "anonymous" posters don't seem to hold up well here in the forum.
When that happens "they" will suddenly disappear after posting 30-40 times a day and then just as suddenly, another "new" poster appears with the same
MO.
You can only wonder...
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loki
Banned
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-9-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
Mood: really happy
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Baja Gringo,
I am sure if you check my posts, you will see that I do not even attempt to speak let alone write anything in spanish. So therefor translations are
even less likely to come from my keyboard.
Based on both yours and Grovers paranoia about all the new posters here,I would say you both need to relax and have more fun with this board. While
some here do seem to have a hidden agenda. I think it involves trying to shut down any if not all the new posters.
It is amusing to note that any ideas that conflict with some here will be shut down at any cost it seems.
Heres an idea worth trying. Get to know the new posters here and you might even get to like them.
Just an idea worth trying.
I want the truth. Do not give me B$
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BajaGringo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3922
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline
Mood: Let's have a BBQ!
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loki:
I didn't name you in my post as I was speaking more in general terms to what we have experienced of late. Was not directed specifically at you but on
a broader level of the phenomena we seen around here recently.
No paranoia here, just have better things to do with my time than waste it in flame wars online. Probably why I have spent little time here of late.
When a forum descends to that level it becomes interesting to only a very few and why I suppose most of us would prefer to keep things civil, and
especially when we disagree (which is often).
I don't expect anybody here to share my opinions or views on anything. I have found that some of my best friends in life are folks with whom I share
diametrically opposing views on a host of subjects, ranging from politics to religion and science. No different here on BN.
I appreciate the offer to get to know folks and if you follow my posts you will know that I routinely invite foks to stop by my house.
And that includes you if you are traveling south...
[Edited on 8-10-2008 by BajaGringo]
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loki
Banned
Posts: 54
Registered: 8-9-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
Mood: really happy
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I might just do that.
I want the truth. Do not give me B$
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ELINVESTIG8R
Select Nomad
Posts: 15882
Registered: 11-20-2007
Location: Southern California
Member Is Offline
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 I stand corrected and grovel at your feet loki as I kiss your ring. You are the best. I think I said this awhile back to
someone.
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