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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3602
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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There is NO final word on this stuff
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
As I see it, in simple terms:
FM-2: Part time residents who want to make Mexico their 'full time home', but not become citizens of Mexico. |
My impression (hey, gnu? Notice I said ''my impression?'') of the FM2 is ''full time in Mexico,'' yes, but it's for those who are wanting National
status, i.e., want to become MX citizens.
Otherwise, k-rico nailed it -- which includes the opinion of his attorney -- and if you can't trust your attorney, who can you trust?
David, other than politics posted at the Forum, your experience and expertise is appreciated by many here. I am one. I'm sure you have the
ability to ignore the rantings of those in the lunatic fringe.
Hey gnu? Do a time out, will you? Your points and expertise and ability to write well is always appreciated, as well. This forum would be
a lesser one without your input. David's experiences are his own and many will agree that regardless of what the ''law'' looks like on paper,
EVERY Migracion office is different, ALL Agents working within those offices are at different levels, and, IN MY EXPERIENCE, no two people get the
same experience.
So, do your best, play nice, and have fun.
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CortezBlue
Super Nomad
Posts: 2213
Registered: 11-14-2006
Location: Fenix/San Phelipe
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | I think David is going for tripple double probation Nomad Status
DK this is completely incorrect. Argh. Why do you insist on spouting misinformation based on no references or facts while claiming to promote Baja?
Its a damaging pattern that is conspicuous?
Depending on your background, look at the INM site. Speak to an INM agent for clarification. Review http://www.inm.gob.mx for specifics. The info, migratory process and method varies by region you plan to visit and varies by country from which
you currently maintain citizenship, in some cases/countries age is a factor, for example New Zealanders from 18-30 etc...
For citizens of USA visiting Baja:
FM-T visa allows up to 180 days for foreigners with multi-entrance and exit.
FM-3 has many flavors, from renter to business person, employee to business owner, full time to part time, volunteer, teacher, student, honorary
contributor to the culture, singer etc.. the varieties are extensive. FM-3 is no longer a path to national. Each book is good for 5 years, presumably
for 2 x 5 year periods.
FM-2 also has many flavors and is for those who are on a path to National with a commitment to living primarily in Mexico and one should conform the
restrictions of time out of the country in order to complete the qualifications toward becoming a national.
If anyone has a specific question you can call or visit the INM. Do not rely on postings here which clearly can only provide anecdotal experiences
which would reflect past personal experiences and not the present.
Something to be aware of is that many people have no experience, such as FM-T holders, Mexican Nationals and many countries are treated uniquely, laws
change from year to year, INM agents also may have limited experiences or limited language skills. Be patient and expect things to change often.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
As I see it, in simple terms:
FM-2: Part time residents who want to make Mexico their 'full time home', but not become citizens of Mexico. |
My impression (hey, gnu? Notice I said ''my impression?'') of the FM2 is ''full time in Mexico,'' yes, but it's for those who are wanting National
status, i.e., want to become MX citizens... |
It is confusing and often changing. And its tough to be under time constraints and forced to make a decision while uniformed or misinformed as can be
the case when speaking to agents or reading here.
So, to make it clear: Just because the FM2 specifies a time limit for being out of the country to qualify for residency, doesn't mean that you must
maintain time limits to qualify to maintain the FM2. So in effect recent changes have made the two visas more similar and also the FM3 less beneficial
so there is really little reason to not just get an FM2 as anyone who has been through the process as well as any informed agent would tell you.
Now, Lee, why would I take a break from correcting massive misinfo that hurts people and hurts Baja? That, along with the high number of posts by DK
that mislead seems to be a serious issue. If the minority posters here allowed you Lee and DK to have your way, Baja Nomad would continue to misinform
and would be more so a site apparently devoted to reducing travel to Baja, full of misinformation reducing community involvement?
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Lee
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3602
Registered: 10-2-2006
Location: High in the Colorado Rockies
Member Is Offline
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Last word from me on this -- anyone else want the last word, go for it.
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Now, Lee, why would I take a break from correcting massive misinfo that hurts people and hurts Baja? That, along with the high number of posts by DK
that mislead seems to be a serious issue. If the minority posters here allowed you Lee and DK to have your way, Baja Nomad would continue to misinform
and would be more so a site apparently devoted to reducing travel to Baja, full of misinformation reducing community involvement?
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Misinformation hurts a few, granted, but the extent that you (gnu) think you need to save this Forum from that misinformation is OVER THE TOP.
NOBODY, me, David, or you, has all the answers.
Your attack on David and the abundance of insults is uncalled for. You don't like David, that's clear. Whatever happened between the two of
you could be cleared up, if you wanted it to be. Why the rant? Why don't you just move on or let go? You clearly are looking for an
argument or a fight.
Oh and by the way, who put you in charge of monitoring the number of David's posts? And do you think David is purposely misleading people with his
information? YOUR agenda is coming through here. It takes away from your credibility. Clean up your act!
As far as me misleading anyone or writing misinformation, that must be another thread -- again, that you're holding on to.
David did write ''in his experience,'' and I did write ''in my impression.''
Here's a great example. Last Winter, I applied for FM2 status from FM3. With me was a friend renewing her FM2. It was 32 days from her
Renewal Date. The Agent in La Paz took her Application, AND MONEY, and she left. She returned 10 days later to see if the Application was in and
she was told that she could NOT apply earlier than ''30'' days of her Renewal Date and that she would have to reapply for her FM2. When she
complained that no one, including the Agent she dealt with, had informed her of the ''30'' day Rule, the new Agent she was speaking with shrugged.
She lost time and money.
So, this is the unprofessional way she was treated, and it is HER experience of what might happen again if she were early in filing an Application.
Should she trust the Agents who are there to help her? Well, she doesn't -- and because of her experience, I don't either. (The Agent who
took her Application and money is not new to that office and, I BELIEVE, knew what he was doing!)
No one here is THE expert -- including gnu -- but some here like to think they are.
And the insults continue, don't they? Tsk. Tsk.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
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Alright let's take this point by point and do our best to look for sources and help each other out.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
Misinformation hurts a few, granted, but the extent that you (gnu) think you need to save this Forum from that misinformation is OVER THE TOP.
NOBODY, me, David, or you, has all the answers.
Your attack on David and the abundance of insults is uncalled for. You don't like David, that's clear. Whatever happened between the two of
you could be cleared up, if you wanted it to be. Why the rant? Why don't you just move on or let go? You clearly are looking for an
argument or a fight. |
We pointed out that David was misinformed, repeatedly and with no concern nor retraction. This is hardly a personal attack, its a point of correction
which is important to travelers and residents. If you have a specific point to make about insults please do make it and note where an insult was made.
| Quote: |
Oh and by the way, who put you in charge of monitoring the number of David's posts? And do you think David is purposely misleading people with his
information? YOUR agenda is coming through here. It takes away from your credibility. Clean up your act! |
Anyone is welcome to post here, my note pointed out that DK is clearly in the category of high number of posts and I noted the misinformation. I think
this is relevant.
What strikes is the defense of misinformation by DK and you. That is odd? This is isn't the first time either. And when I researched specifics
extensively for you, you replied that you would not read and references? This is becoming quite an odd exchange, defending misinfo and refusing to
review facts while becoming increasingly emotional and defensive? Hmmm
| Quote: |
As far as me misleading anyone or writing misinformation, that must be another thread -- again, that you're holding on to.
David did write ''in his experience,'' and I did write ''in my impression.''
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Qualifying misinfo doesn't make it defendable? For both of you to continue to belabor and defend the misinfo is truly an absurd notion. Shall we all
discuss issues in topsy turvy language? And then defend it? This is becoming quite silly.
| Quote: |
Here's a great example. Last Winter, I applied for FM2 status from FM3. With me was a friend renewing her FM2. It was 32 days from her
Renewal Date. The Agent in La Paz took her Application, AND MONEY, and she left. She returned 10 days later to see if the Application was in and
she was told that she could NOT apply earlier than ''30'' days of her Renewal Date and that she would have to reapply for her FM2. When she
complained that no one, including the Agent she dealt with, had informed her of the ''30'' day Rule, the new Agent she was speaking with shrugged.
She lost time and money.
So, this is the unprofessional way she was treated, and it is HER experience of what might happen again if she were early in filing an Application.
Should she trust the Agents who are there to help her? Well, she doesn't -- and because of her experience, I don't either. (The Agent who
took her Application and money is not new to that office and, I BELIEVE, knew what he was doing!)
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Once again, there is something missing here. No one can pay cash directly to the INM agents in La Paz, not possible. If a payment was made using
formata SAT Cinco or the newer INM formata directly to a bank that payment would stand and be valid until the visa was completed. If there was a delay
or problem resulting in a fine there would the additional payment however no payment would have been lost. That isn't possible unless the individuals
lost the receipts and copies for payment.
What you describe is hardly a case of misinformation, and if the timeline is correct, she arrived first 31 days prior and 2nd 10 days later back, she
would have 21 days still prior to the expiration and with plenty of time to submit her application and the payment receipt would apply, resulting in
no loss of money or time, the 2nd application would have been presented, the signed and stamped form would be her valid visa in the interim and she
could pick it up anytime in the following year. So there is something missing or a misunderstanding.
As you describe it, the INM agent submitted the forms with the application date for signature with the SubDelgado Licensio Oswaldo Ramirez Gomez who
correctly noted she must refill out the application due to the small error, not everything, just the date and perhaps the form which would have had
the wrong date, otherwise they would be breaking the law and they would be in trouble and the office would be in jeopardy.
I am sorry that happened but by no means is there any suggestion that money was lost unless she lost her receipts and no time was lost either.
Apparently there has been a misunderstanding.
| Quote: |
No one here is THE expert -- including gnu -- but some here like to think they are.
And the insults continue, don't they? Tsk. Tsk. |
Now, if you must insist that correcting what is incorrect with references to the facts is insulting than so be it.
I have no idea why I notice these discrepancies and misinfo or why I feel the need to correct so many, I am a simple person who apparently pays enough
attention to notice. Frankly I do have some concern for those who would like to travel to Baja and are being misled toward an unpleasant experience
based on wrong info, so it is my desire to contribute to BN to correct the gross proliferation of misinformation.
Let's please focus on the facts, let's try to help each other out and if you make a mistake it's fine, but please do acknowledge it and try to correct
it in order to leave a database of helpful info and links.
http://www.inm.gob.mx/
http://www.sre.gob.mx/
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karenintx
Senior Nomad
Posts: 540
Registered: 3-16-2008
Location: CSL
Member Is Offline
Mood: Living The Dream
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No opinion on FM2 or FM3…but here is what I would suggest.
When it comes times to either upgrade or just need to get a new book you should make a copy of every page and keep this for your records as INM does
not give you back your old FM2/FM3. We had to get a new FM3 book after only three years. During our remodeling we were coming and going every week
for four months so it ate-up the pages fast.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65407
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Gnu, my high number of posts has more to do with the fact that I am the oldest Nomad after Doug (Aug. 2002) along with the amount of travel and
history I like to share here... and chating with my amigos... etc.
Dennis is the #1 'posting' Nomad based on the much shorter time he has been here in relation to the number of posts he has... Soon Dennis will have
more overall posts than I, I predict.
Too bad the amount of mis-information really stems from Mexico's poor ability to clearly post the rules/ laws ... and the migra officers poor ability
to follow the letter of the law. Every migra one speaks to about this gives a different answer. So who's to say any Nomad is right or wrong if the
Mexican government officials are not consistant with answers???
Please chill out... do the best you can... if you see an error in facts from me or anybody here, just state what you believe or know is true WITHOUT
the insults or personal comments. It is that easy... I want to be corrected if I am wrong. Do try and provide evidence to strenghthen your view,
however.
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
Member Is Offline
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It has been strongly suggested that once you finish one or two 5 year terms with an FM3, you should consider an FM2. Well, what if you want to own a
Fido home in the baja and want to be able to visit it six times a year for two weeks each visit (you know, a vacation home). That is to say, what if
you don't ever intend on living full time or even as mush as six months per year in Mexico, but you want to continue to hold the fido house for over
10 years, but just occasionally visit it as a vacation home? Can you do that by perpetually renewing an FM3? Or, are you forced into an FM2 wherein
you must be in Mexico for long periods of time?
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
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There is a misunderstanding about FM2. The FM2 allows you to come and go, the time requirement limiting time out of the country to 18 months is for
establishing residency toward Naturalization or permanent resident, which you may or may not choose to exercise. You can have a FM2 and still visit
every 6 months.
The last time I checked an FM3 visa is available for 5 years twice for a total of 10 years. Though I have no idea whether anyone has had a FM3 for
longer periods.
So, it seems that most people would be best with a FM2.
Perhaps those with more time and experience can offer insight.
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