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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Hong Kong at night is the most awesome sight I have ever seen-----------and easily compares with Half Dome.
Barry
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Mostar Bridge
The most beautiful bridge in the world.
Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?
For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Frank Lloy Wrong
A design that mimics and complements it's environment.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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gnukid
"Wind power requires a grid and storing infrastructure to serve it's users"
Case in point, Oregon, which has the dams on the Columbia River as it's primary electric resource. Oregon also has areas with reliable winds and major
wind farms. One of the big problems as you so clearly stated is that there is not enough capacity in the grid to handle the excess energy generated by
the wind fields so the energy is often left offline as the hydro-power trumps the irregular wind power. The Bonneville, The Dalles and John Day Dams
have mammoth generators, power-stations, trunk lines etc. The scale of these systems is massive and it boggles the mind to think of the costs that it
would take to replace this system with one that includes batteries, converters. larger trunk lines etc., just for starters.
There is unfortunately no free lunch when it comes to power.
Iflyfishwithaledflashlightbuiltintomyduckbillcap
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Barry A.
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Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The most beautiful bridge in the world.
Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?
For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans. |
That bridge is gorgeoue, SkipJack, so you see we DO have at least 'something' in common. My point is that I find it much more enjoyable to see
"beauty" where I find it, regardless of it's source, and that includes many man-made things--------I guess I am a pragmatist, and would rather see
good than bad, and I try to make the best of things that I think are unavoidable.
As to Iflyfish's comments about windpower versus hydro in Oregon------------why would we have to change the hydro just because we also want to include
wind power? Would we not just somehow incorporate wind with water, and not even think about replaceing hydro? Perhaps I missed something?
Barry
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3151
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The most beautiful bridge in the world.
Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?
For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans. |
Beautiful bridge, Jack.
That would be a bridge built by the Ottomans 500 years ago using technology invented by the Romans 2500 years ago.
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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Skipjack Joe
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Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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The difference is that you have subjugated beauty to your socio/economic ideology. Anything that turns a profit is by definition beautiful. A nuclear
power plant, no matter how it looks, is a thing of beauty. A pit in the earth is the same.
It's the same mindset that drove Rockerfeller to destroy Diego Rivera's mural in the 50's. Somewhere in this giant mural there was a portrait of Lenin
(painted intentionally). The mural lost all of it's beauty to a man who hated communism and he had the mural destroyed. I suppose if you can destroy
something like that then you never loved it to begin with and your reasons for having it painted were wrong. Diego Rivera, however, was greatly pained
by this destruction and it was not due to his devotion to communism.
Those wind farms are a blight to the landscape. Nobody should have to draw curtains. Telephone lines are the same but to a smaller degree. Dams, on
the other hand, are things of beauty.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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You wrote earlier that what really bothers you is trash left on open land by others. To me these windmills are visual trash on a mountain.
Each windmill by itself is attractive. But placed on a mountain crest it is visually destructive. That was the point of the images I posted. Those
homes and bridges were built to be in harmony with their environment. Their own beauty adds to the environment - not subtracts.
Guess what those golf courses do to baja, except bring in money? Actually baja afficionados don't consider cabo to be baja any longer. And why?
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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Each windmill requires a maintenance road, support power, maintenance crew, spare parts and produces waste and blight from this maintenance.
Studies have concluded that wind mill parks reduces tourism, scenic enjoyment and people report a reduced desire to visit the location hurting the
economy in the region.
There was a seminar yesterday in Chicago discussing these issues at the ICCC. There is video of the speakers, physicists and economists discussing the
absurdity of selling wind power as good for the environment.
Mind you I am not against wind power, I have been exploring it and experimenting and follow Makani Wind Power experiments closely.
When wind power is employed there is a great humming sound that is really irritating as it fluctuates. zwww-zww-zwwwww
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Each windmill requires a maintenance road, support power, maintenance crew, spare parts and produces waste and blight from this maintenance.
Studies have concluded that wind mill parks reduces tourism, scenic enjoyment and people report a reduced desire to visit the location hurting the
economy in the region.
There was a seminar yesterday in Chicago discussing these issues at the ICCC. There is video of the speakers, physicists and economists discussing the
absurdity of selling wind power as good for the environment.
Mind you I am not against wind power, I have been exploring it and experimenting and follow Makani Wind Power experiments closely.
When wind power is employed there is a great humming sound that is really irritating as it fluctuates. zwww-zww-zwwwww |
Sauer Energy's "verticle turbines" addresses that irritating noise, and has mostly solved it-------less noise, and the stresses on the windmill itself
are vastly reduced.
I (we?) choose what I (we?) think is beautiful or ugly--------it is not spontaneous, I don't believe. I submit that this perception of beauty and
ugly is a product of predisposition to what we like and approve of, and what we don't like or approve of---------a mental choice.
Barry
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Verticle turbines are an improvement over the old windmill type.
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1bobo
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Posts: 116
Registered: 2-5-2010
Location: Mulege
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The most beautiful bridge in the world.
Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?
For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans. |
Destroyed in 1993 during the Serbian war. The rebuild was done according to aesthetics rather than lowest bid for a span, apparently.
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captkw
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3850
Registered: 10-19-2010
Location: el charro b.c.s.
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Mood: new dog/missing the old 1
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WATER
As someone that has been chaseing the fresh water in B.C.S. since 77 and was more than likely the frist gringo to discover the waterfall's near el
charro !! watching the golf courses and other water wasters come into the area has been a b-tch!! and also the fed well's up by constatution,that the
local's have have shared with me many year's ago that they had a affect on the water table to say the least !! I do not have the answer,,but can tell
you that last season (winter) cow's were dieing and the creek was the lowest that I have seen in my lifetime and the serria la laguna need's some rain
!! BAD !! and not all at once..and is way past critacal stage...La paz get's it's water from "good woman" res. up the hill toward's La venntanna and
don't know it's current level,,but I'm assumeimg it's LOW !!
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The most beautiful bridge in the world.
Golden Gate Bridge?
Brooklyn Bridge?
Sydney Harbor Bridge?
For me it's this 500 year old bridge built by the Ottomans. |
That bridge is gorgeoue, SkipJack, so you see we DO have at least 'something' in common. My point is that I find it much more enjoyable to see
"beauty" where I find it, regardless of it's source, and that includes many man-made things--------I guess I am a pragmatist, and would rather see
good than bad, and I try to make the best of things that I think are unavoidable.
As to Iflyfish's comments about windpower versus hydro in Oregon------------why would we have to change the hydro just because we also want to include
wind power? Would we not just somehow incorporate wind with water, and not even think about replaceing hydro? Perhaps I missed something?
Barry |
Oregon has brought Wind Turbines on line with the hydro-power from the dams. The problem is that the existing Power Grid cannot handle the increased
capacity so the Wind Farms are often off-line and therefore they are not able to be used in either a consistent nor predictable way hence they are
losing money. In order for Wind Power to be profitable there would need to be a new Power Grid and in this economy though a wonderful idea, it is not
feasible.
Iflyfishinthedark
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8088
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Oregon has brought Wind Turbines on line with the hydro-power from the dams. The problem is that the existing Power Grid cannot handle the increased
capacity so the Wind Farms are often off-line and therefore they are not able to be used in either a consistent nor predictable way hence they are
losing money. In order for Wind Power to be profitable there would need to be a new Power Grid and in this economy though a wonderful idea, it is not
feasible.
Iflyfishinthedark |
That's an interesting problem that needs to be solved because all energy derived from the sun will have same problem. Here are some thoughts:
a. Modify the grid so that the derived energy is sent to the area that needs it and when there is no wind the hydro energy is sent to where the wind's
energy is absent.
b. Since the wind and solar energy is variable and hydro energy is available at will the hydro energy should be subordinate and turned on and off as
needed (sounds unrealistic actually).
c. Electrical energy storage. These grids seem to only be capable on real time energy. That's really restrictive. There needs to be a way to save
energy and use it as needed. It's just like damming a river and releasing water as needed. An impoundment is like a battery.
I'm sure all of this has been thought out by now.
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