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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I am sorry, but I am not trying to be argumentative at all... Just seeking the truth... Can we just discuss the findings?
Are you saying that climate is static, that it wasn't cooler and wetter in central Baja thousands of years ago? |
David, this is a pretty good watch:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/climate-of-doubt/
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18383
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I am sorry, but I am not trying to be argumentative at all... Just seeking the truth... Can we just discuss the findings?
Are you saying that climate is static, that it wasn't cooler and wetter in central Baja thousands of years ago? |
data indicate climate did vary in past 10K years, but it was always warm and dry in human terms,... no rain forests and perennial streams -- you go
back to a "cool" period, and you would not see much difference, still desert/cactus and normally dry stream beds.
life would have been harsh in the old days, nomadic hunter gatherers moving between inland and coast, following the seasonal food/water supplies.
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Bajaboy
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Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I am sorry, but I am not trying to be argumentative at all... Just seeking the truth... Can we just discuss the findings?
Are you saying that climate is static, that it wasn't cooler and wetter in central Baja thousands of years ago? |
David, this is a pretty good watch:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/climate-of-doubt/ |
Seriously, a pro-Obama PBS campaign-like video shown just a couple weeks before the election is a "good watch"?
Oh okay, Zac... if you think so amoigo!  |
There you go again getting political.....
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Osprey
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Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Here's the PDF of the Ritter study by University of California but there have been scores of age studies with every imaginable kind of device and
theory. In and around the painting sites artifacts have been dated from NOW back to 7,500 ybp -- that is, some of the samples are 500 years old, some
are 2,800, some are 6,000, etc. etc., about what scientists would expect in a place that was host to human visitors for about 50,000 years.
http://scahome.org/publications/proceedings/Proceedings.25Ri...
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Bajaboy
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Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
It was YOUR link amigo!  |
And your point? Have you ever watched Frontline?
It's an investigative reporting show that actually uses facts and explores multiple perspectives of an issue. Then it is up to the viewer to
interpret and make a judgement.
I know that might be hard for you to digest....but you should try it sometime.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Here's the PDF of the Ritter study by University of California but there have been scores of age studies with every imaginable kind of device and
theory. In and around the painting sites artifacts have been dated from NOW back to 7,500 ybp -- that is, some of the samples are 500 years old, some
are 2,800, some are 6,000, etc. etc., about what scientists would expect in a place that was host to human visitors for about 50,000 years.
http://scahome.org/publications/proceedings/Proceedings.25Ri... |
Great link! I spoke with Dr. Ritter over the phone following my visit to the mystery walls at Las Animas, first reported in Desert Magazine by Choral
Pepper, in July, 1966. Ritter had written many papers on the Las Animas area findings. I wanted to make sure the site was known, not specifically
unique, and not in any danger if I shared the location.
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Osprey
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Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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So you actually met my uncle doctor Ritter! What a small world.
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David K
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Posts: 64852
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Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
So you actually met my uncle doctor Ritter! What a small world. |
"I spoke with Dr. Ritter over the phone"
Very nice chat... I have some of his papers on the Baja archaeology digs.
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tripledigitken
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4848
Registered: 9-27-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Here's the PDF of the Ritter study by University of California but there have been scores of age studies with every imaginable kind of device and
theory. In and around the painting sites artifacts have been dated from NOW back to 7,500 ybp -- that is, some of the samples are 500 years old, some
are 2,800, some are 6,000, etc. etc., about what scientists would expect in a place that was host to human visitors for about 50,000 years.
http://scahome.org/publications/proceedings/Proceedings.25Ri... |
Thanks for providing this referenced work. The age of the sites are indeed all over the board. Whilst some (paintings not artifacts) were created
7500 years ago many (100's) were created from 400 to 2000 years ago as well.
What has led you to believe that the originators were from Japan and arrived by boat? We know that Asians crossed the land bridge over the Bering
Straight and settled in what is now Alaska and Canada.
" The history of Alaska dates back to the Upper Paleolithic period (around 14,000 BC), when Siberian groups crossed the Bering land bridge into what
is now western Alaska." wikipedia
Ken
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Osprey
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There is growing evidence sea hunters could have made voyages north from Japan coast hopping across the Aleutians and down the west coast of what is
now the U.S. and Baja. Some scientists who study early man movement gave me the idea that large groups of such boat people might have used Viscaino as
a base, returned many times to do the painting.
No other similar large figure groups appear anywhere (as far as we know) on walk down travel paths. Proto-Ainu bear rituals, art, etc. mirror the cave
figures.
Dichlocephalic skulls, new DNA studies suggest many groups of early man visited the peninsula by sea as far back as 10,000 ybp. Google up the Channel
Islands to learn of early man who stopped and lived there in sustainable groups for extended periods of time.
I didn't count the sea creatures in the paintings that appear in Crosby's book and others but in some areas of study they greatly outnumber all other
figures. I think the painters were sea voyages, fishermen, whalers.
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Skipjack Joe
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Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
So you actually met my uncle doctor Ritter! What a small world. |
... and my classmate in high school, John Ritter.
DK, I can inflate myself with the best of them.
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Bug
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Posts: 62
Registered: 11-12-2005
Location: San Felipe, Baja
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Mood: Life can not get better than this!
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I would like to go to the El Arco painting. Can some give me directions to it from Hwy 1.. or a GPS spot.
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bkbend
Senior Nomad
Posts: 693
Registered: 11-27-2003
Location: central OR or central baja
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They could, but probably shouldn't. There is enough information available online already to get you there, you just need to connect the dots. That
will make the trip more rewarding and help keep the spoilers at bay.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bug
I would like to go to the El Arco painting. Can some give me directions to it from Hwy 1.. or a GPS spot. |
This should do it:
http://www.bajabound.com/bajatravel/painted_cave_of_el_carme...
If you need more details, send me a u2u... Baja is a gift to appreciate, not some private place to be selfish with... But, that's just my opinion,
after all...
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jeans
Super Nomad
Posts: 1059
Registered: 9-16-2002
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Mood: Encantada
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| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
Does anyone know what they used for pigment? |
When I took the 3-day mule trip into San Pablo Canyon a few years back, one of the guides took a rock and whacked the trunk of one of the many large
bushs growing there to show us the red sap. Obviously they thought the tree sap contributed.
Mom always told me to be different - Now she says...Not THAT different
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wessongroup
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Location: Mission Viejo
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Thanks very nice
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Ateo
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Posts: 5901
Registered: 7-18-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I am sorry, but I am not trying to be argumentative at all... Just seeking the truth... Can we just discuss the findings?
Are you saying that climate is static, that it wasn't cooler and wetter in central Baja thousands of years ago? |
David, this is a pretty good watch:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/climate-of-doubt/ |
Bajaboy, Thanks for the link. Gonna stream to my apple TV tonight.
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Osprey
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Posts: 3694
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Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Jeans, I'll venture a guess that the plant was the specie of Lomboy that has a very distinctive red sap -- here that plant weeps red sap down the
trunk and around the base of the plant.
Lomboy is perhaps the most prominent scrub in south and central Baja -- the plant that gives the airline tourist that lovely green view out the window
of the plane for more than half the flight from the border to the cape (given the season and the rainfall) --- said another way, if and when the rains
come, the green from that perspective is all lomboy.
I have no clue how long the pigment, the sap lingers once it leaves the plant. The Pericue and others used the red iron found naturally in the rocks
where they lived to die their funereal wrappings and the bones of the dead.
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jeans
Super Nomad
Posts: 1059
Registered: 9-16-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Jeans, I'll venture a guess that the plant was the specie of Lomboy that has a very distinctive red sap -- here that plant weeps red sap down the
trunk and around the base of the plant.
Lomboy is perhaps the most prominent scrub in south and central Baja -..... |
My books are packed away right
now or I would be getting out my Baja Plant Guide right about now. It was a wet year and that plant was everywhere.
Sounds like you know your baja vegetation!
Mom always told me to be different - Now she says...Not THAT different
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wilderone
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Registered: 2-9-2004
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"... Channel Islands to learn of early man who stopped and lived there in sustainable groups for extended periods of time"
There have been spear points found and other artifacts (huge midden piles, charcoal from habitation sites, etc. remain today unobscured) that suggest
mankind lived there 8,000 - 12,000 years ago, along with pigmy mammoths. It is also believed that the ocean channel between the islands and mainland
California was much more narrow. Ample evidence points to boats being used to go back and forth from the islands and the mainland and to hunt whales
and pinnipeds (the largest population exists at the Channel Islands). Point being that rather than being populated by wayfaring groups from the
northern continents, the inhabitants were from California and whoever they were at the time. Yes, possible that those coastal populations were Asian,
but I believe DNA evidence done in the past decade indicates ancient migration to the US came from Europe. Also, the Channel Islanders weren't all
that sustainable as evidenced by the telling midden piles, where large abalone and clam shells are found at the bottom of the 30 ft. piles, and much
smaller shells at the top. They were forced to relocate due to depletion of marine species and decimated plant and animal life on the island.
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